Back to the Korax Forum Archives


Forum

Scattered Evil WIP

Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:16:00

dj_jl

I just uploaded current version of SE here. It includes all 4 submited hurt skins. Have fun!
Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:59:00

RambOrc

WIP = ? Also, it crashes with "Received external exception", I'm kicked back to the desktop, then a couple of seconds later there is a module crash of Doomsday.exe. This is Win98 with a Matrox G400 and I used the D3D port. It happens nearly at once in maps where the Korax animated texture in the flames appear, and it happened after a short time in a different map too.
Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:35:00

mago

Hey, please correct these errors, so I can see the mod! I'm counting on you. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Tue, 18 Jun 2002 21:16:00

RambOrc

You mean it doesn't work for you neither? BTW before it crashed in the Dragon Chapel, I saw a bleeding Centaur, real cute! LOL
Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:03:00

Ichor

I think WIP is Work In Progress.
Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:28:00

RambOrc

Makes sense... hey Ichor if you don't want to post your CG3 news yourself at RavenGames at least drop a note at <a href="mailto:news@ravengames.com">news@ravengames.com</a> so JP can post them, I mean it's your popularity. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:33:00

RambOrc

Janis, a basic question, would it be possible with not too much work to allow for sky textures reaching to the bottom (i.e. no outside sector walls), like you have it in Vavoom? It's not a must-have feature request but rather a clarification, if it can be easily implemented, I'll design a desert/plains hub, if not, I'll design a canyon/ravines hub instead.
Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:40:00

Ichor

I'd rather not. I'm concentrating more on finishing the maps, which except for the last one in the hub, are almost done anyway.
Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:58:00

mago

Well, actually I haven't tried them yet [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] but I'm not lazy, I just don't know how to do it. Is there any instruction I should be aware of?
Tue, 18 Jun 2002 23:21:00

RambOrc

What I meant is every time you post a news at the CG3 site, you should drop a mail at JP, he'll do the rest (looking up the news on your site and making a news item on RavenGames/RavenCommunity).
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 00:39:00

mago

Well, if you are talking to me, I meant the SE WIP, not the news.
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 00:42:00

mago

It's good you liked the Centaur, because he has the best hurt skin untill now. I didn't work with Paint Shop before, so the others may look a little worse next to his... I plan to do to the others the same I did to the Centaur (work on the shadows/lights and soften it a little) if I have time after I make all the others sprites. By tha way, I think I'll leave the others skins for later and begin to work hard on our girl, who is complaining a lot for my attention. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Anyway, I would really need that color change function that allow us to change the satturation of some colors, so changing from one main color to another, without loosing details, such as shadows and light spots. If it's possible, would make my life much easier.
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 01:13:00

mago

I took a look at the SEwad and found something that may be a problem, but it's my fault, not Janis'. You see, when I made the Hurt skins, I just edited the frames that would show the wounds, leaving the others out of the Hurt Skni WAD. So, some sequences aren't complete, and others are missing, like some death frames (most enemies), and the attack, taking damage and dying for the city mage. So, I don't know about it, but it may create some problems to the engine, when it tries to show the sprite and it isn't there in the wad. I'll correct this and make a wad for all the monsters with hurt skin including ALL their frames, even the attacks (fireballs), an falling weapons, etc. I already did it to some of them, the Ettin and Centaur I think, but I'll see the others too. O got an error message and couldn't start the wad at all. The message was: "R_InitTextures: Missing patch in texture ABADONE" and then the starter sed3d.exe crashes. By the way, Janis, I think you forgot the Helmless Cleric. Could you put him in the wad too, in the place of the old Cleric? By the way, the city mage should also go in the Mage's place (for the city mage to have a complete wad, the new frames should replace the respectives in the normal wad, and the others series should stay the same). The same for the Cleric.
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 08:08:00

dj_jl

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I took a look at the SEwad and found something that may be a problem, but it's my fault, not Janis'. You see, when I made the Hurt skins, I just edited the frames that would show the wounds, leaving the others out of the Hurt Skni WAD. So, some sequences aren't complete, and others are missing, like some death frames (most enemies), and the attack, taking damage and dying for the city mage. So, I don't know about it, but it may create some problems to the engine, when it tries to show the sprite and it isn't there in the wad. I'll correct this and make a wad for all the monsters with hurt skin including ALL their frames, even the attacks (fireballs), an falling weapons, etc. I already did it to some of them, the Ettin and Centaur I think, but I'll see the others too.
I'm including only the changed frames. Others are read from hexen.wad. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>O got an error message and couldn't start the wad at all. The message was: "R_InitTextures: Missing patch in texture ABADONE" and then the starter sed3d.exe crashes. <hr></blockquote> You forgot to copy hexen wad into SE directory. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
By the way, Janis, I think you forgot the Helmless Cleric. Could you put him in the wad too, in the place of the old Cleric? By the way, the city mage should also go in the Mage's place (for the city mage to have a complete wad, the new frames should replace the respectives in the normal wad, and the others series should stay the same). The same for the Cleric.
What RambOrc says? should they replace old characted graphics or they should be seperate objects.
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:51:00

RambOrc

If it makes anything easier for now, feel free to simply replace the Mage and Cleric frames with the new ones. They'll be separate entities in the game itself, but that's several months off. So I leave it to you to consider the short range and long run work amount and pick the solution that causes less work to you.
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:00:00

mago

"You forgot to copy hexen wad into SE directory." [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] Sorry... I'm gonna try it right now!!!
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:31:00

mago

I could play SE for a little bit! The hurt Ettins look great, and it was really fun, although I couldn't play others maps or see others hurt skins. It kept saying something like external error or external exception, and it would crash and I would have to reboot if I would want to play again. Anyway I almost took some shots of the Ettins, but I'm not good at it... I liked the new opening graphic, and the help graphics too.
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:36:00

dj_jl

I think that it's better to add graphics of new characters as new objects, that can be placed in map. Old character graphics also might be used. How do you like idea of conversation system with 3-rd person view? About the crashes - which driver are you using. I'm using OpenGL and had no problems. About the sky - I think that adding a bottom shouldn't be that hard.
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:43:00

mago

3rd person view: I really like it. Crashes: I'm using the 3dfx drive. I think the file is sed3d.exe.
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:46:00

dj_jl

No, it's Direct3D. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Try to use OpenGL, the file is seogl.bat.
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:48:00

mago

No, it doesn't work. I use the direct3d file in Kmod and it's the only one who works.
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:57:00

RambOrc

3rd person conversation? I can think of several ways to do that, could you describe how you think this? Crashes - I've been using D3D with my Matrox G400Max, as OpenGL never worked with jHexen properly, at least not with the 0.99.6 stuff. Missing menus, module crash when exiting, etc. etc. I think also some visual errors, not sure. D3D mostly worked with KMOD. Sky - OK, I'll write the design guide's feature list accordingly. BTW Mago, this is what you meant about Janis, right? [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:59:00

mago

It sure is. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 18:48:00

dj_jl

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
3rd person conversation? I can think of several ways to do that, could you describe how you think this?
That is, when you talk, camera is showing you, and when another character talks, camera shows him, and possibly also you can be seen. Basicly like in DeusEx (that you haven't played [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ). <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Crashes - I've been using D3D with my Matrox G400Max, as OpenGL never worked with jHexen properly, at least not with the 0.99.6 stuff. Missing menus, module crash when exiting, etc. etc. I think also some visual errors, not sure. D3D mostly worked with KMOD.
And me with GeForce2 wonders where you're getting problems. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Good news is that, since I switched code base to C++, I can use backtracking system that I'm using in Vavoom.
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 20:56:00

RambOrc

This means Mago has to draw talk animations for the player character as well, but else no extra graphics are needed, I think. This poses however the basic question, whether interaction/talking to characters is in real time or with popups like in Strife? I think we not yet decided on this question. As for playtesting, I've got another machine with a GeForce 3, but if the game won't work on the G400, you can be sure it won't work on any ATI or Voodoo cards neither, or to put it even more plain, it's nVidia-only (that's BTW a basic prob of jHexen, on non-nVidia cards it doesn't work very well). So I absolutely want to work it at least 99% fine on the G400, at least in D3D, else we might end up with a game 3/4 of the people can't even start. Once we're far enough into the game, I might even try it on my old 133 MHz MMX with the Matrox Mystique and the Voodoo1. I once tried Vavoom on that machine in DOS, but it was dog slow. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:24:00

mago

It can't be. I'm unable to play the SEwad properly. Are you sure everything is alright with the files, Janis? My computer have some problems, but untill now everything was going ok.
Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:03:00

mago

I was finally able to play SE wad long enough to see most of the hurt skins (I just didn't see the brown serpent). Anyway, I think they are cool, and the mirror problem for the serpent didn't bother me at all. I thought the centaur would look better in the game, though. The engine makes the sprites too blurry, so any details are impossible to see. In fact, the wounds are hard to see, because they have no contrast with the body (the changes in colors (like light/dark red were lost). The skins look good anyway, and the change didn't annoy me in any way, so I guess other people will like it too. What about you guys, did you like them?
Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:06:00

mago

BY the way, I'm gonna post this in the news alright? Something like : "Hurt Skins sucessfully implemented".
Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:49:00

dj_jl

Yes, I also like them. And about the hardware - how's the situation with kmod 2.2 or Vavoom? 3000 downloads in a year, compared to 52000 Vavoom downloads also in this year ... [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:56:00

RambOrc

I didn't have any probs seeing the centaur is bleeding all over. And yes, for the record, I do like them (it seems I'm not the only one who likes to be openly praised, [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] ). Yes, yes, post it in the news, the more news, the better (I'll just make a quick headlines at the top of the page if there are many long news, an automated new archives is no prob neither). <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Janis Legzdinsh: <strong>And about the hardware - how's the situation with kmod 2.2 or Vavoom?</strong><hr></blockquote> I'm not sure I'm meant to answer and what I'm meant to answer, as a feeble try I'll just say KMOD 2.2 is the same on my G400 as SE, it just doesn't crash. As for Vavoom, I downloaded the latest version the day it came out but haven't yet gotten around installing it (before you get mad at me, it took me nearly half a year to install Wolfenstein and another couple of months to actually start playing it over the first one and a half maps [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] ). <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
3000 downloads in a year, compared to 52000 Vavoom downloads also in this year ... [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Very funny, mister... [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] ...and how many of those used Vavoom for playing Hexen? [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] KMOD for DOOM would attract more downloads too... [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Seriously, I find it a very nice number, especially if you think of the fact that there were maybe a 100 downloads in the first 2-3 months after the release of 1.0. The cool thing is that download numbers are going up practically every day, with a steady flow of new players.
Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:59:00

RambOrc

BTW this was one of the reasons I brought up the question of including the DOOM Marine in Korax Arena. It was fervently discussed back last Autumn or so (feel free to dig it up in the old devforum posts). Another reason is that I always wanted to take the shotgun and blow up all those club-swinging and teett-chomping fantasy monsters with a good ol' shotgun or rip 'em to shreds with a chaingun... (that's the reason for the Shotgun Mod idea, too). This is still an open question, so once you found the old postings and read the arguments of both sides, feel free to take up this discussion again (or leave it, as you will).
Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:57:00

mago

It's not a question of being praised, I just wanted to know your opinions, since I'm not the only one doing a mod here! [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Anyway, It's good the numbers are getting higher (for both of you), and as for the Doom marine in Korax: for one side, it's always good to have a famous character in a mod, he is good at what he does best (destroy things), and have lots of fans (myself included), but in the other hand, don't you think his hi-tech weapons will bring unbalance to the mod, since everbody else has only 4 weapons (unless the Heretic elf), so he will be more powerfull and have a wider range of possibilities with the greater number of weapons, one for each condition (long range, close range, hand to hand, massive number of attacks, wide areas...), while the others will have a limited number of choices. Maybe if you cut down some weapons...
Fri, 21 Jun 2002 05:49:00

RambOrc

I'll internally release a base concept description for all 3 projects soon, it'll simplify such discussions. To make a quick reference, in Korax Arena each player class will have 10 weapon slots, each used by a physical weapon or a magical spell, i.e. the DOOM marine and the Heretic elf will get some extra weapon slots too (but most probably filled with stuff like bombs, grenades, or the like), the Mage will get only spells, either loaded in a staff or performed with pure hands, etc. There won't be no carriable artifacts and only very few instant powerups (like an Icon of the Defender you pick up and it activates at once automatically), it'll be pretty much about smashing your foes with what you have in the 10 weapon slots (like in UT), and not about managing an inventory in the middle of a battle.
Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:25:00

dj_jl

The fact that kmod runs fine most likely means that crashes have nothing to do with rendering/hardware. I will start adding that stack tracing stuff so I can get more idea where it crashes. I totaly agree that Arena should not have inventory.
Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:52:00

Ichor

I think there should be an inventory, but it should be limited to offensive artifacts that can be used at the opponents like Discs of Repulsion, Flechettes, Porkelators, etc. Those artifacts can be used by pressing numbers 5 through 0. Defensive artifacts that would only affect yourself would still be used automatically.
Fri, 21 Jun 2002 20:12:00

RambOrc

I was thinking a long about the Disc of Repulsion, Any other artifact could be easily integrated as a weapon (like flechettes/time bomb, porkelator/morph ovum etc.) or powerup (icon of the defender/ring of invulnerability, shadowsphere, etc.), but the Disc or Repulsion should be used together with a weapon in your hand. Maybe we could make it something very special, like tying it to key 0, but not switching to it when pressed like to the weapons 1-9, and make it collect "ammo" as well like other weapons. That way you could hold any weapon in your hand and still press 0 and have a push around you, as long as you have ammo for the Disc "weapon".
Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:23:00

dj_jl

One serious bug has been found. Hew binaries are uploaded here. I hope that it will stop crashing. BTW I would like to know how it works or crashes in OpenGL. [ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Janis Legzdinsh ]</p>
Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:44:00

RambOrc

Good, it seems to work fine now (I was at places where it crashed last time and it didn't this time). [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] This is in Direct3D, where I tried last time as well. Tried now in OGL, same as always, tons of visual errors, some might be corrected by GLBSP (though not necessarily), others not as they are menu or overlay errors, mostly missing graphics. Doomsday never worked in OGL on my G400 since 0.98.something or so (similar for Voodoo2 cards, they stopped working in 0.98.3).
Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:46:00

mago

Alright, the direct3d port is working perfectly now, I didn't experienced any bug at all. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Anyway, I think there is still a minus flaw: the Brown Serpent don't show his Hurt skin, we can only see the wounds in the death animation. I don't get it, because if the hurt skin appears in the death animation, then it should appear in all others animations too. Maybe you forgot to set the health values for the skin to take place or something... (then again, I was playing with the warrior, who were really strong (more than 35 points of strenght) by the time I got to see one Brown serpent, so my blows could, although I don't believe, be so damaging that the serpent would go from the "healthy" sprites directly to the death animation. I don't think it's it, because I still had to deliver two or three blows, and the two blows should be enough to cut the thing's health below half). But it's great to see the skins in action.
Thu, 27 Jun 2002 18:19:00

dj_jl

I just uploaded new binaries here. In OpenGL I fixed shared texture palette extension. Open seogl.bat and add option -paltex, maybe it will help. And the most interesting - open town map and try to talk with the city mage. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
Fri, 28 Jun 2002 07:56:00

RambOrc

Forgot to mention that OpenGL has another prob, every time I exit the game it crashes. As for the latest test, I started it up once, no changes, then I realized I forgot to put in the extra command line, started it up again, still no changes, no prob, started up a 3rd time... it never came up fully and locked up my whole comp, damn... this BTW happens every time I try to create a screenshot with Doomsday, how do I hate this... [img]images/smiles/icon_sad.gif[/img] Anyway, I'd say forget about OpenGL, I mean D3D runs pretty much at the same speed on the G400, so it'll be probably the same for other cards that can't run the OGL port. As to the city mage, I now recall there was a specification Camper should've told me but he never did, so my city mage now suddenly looks like a Mage Boss once again and of course it won't talk to me... [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] could you send give me the detailed specs on getting a new city mage into a map with WadAuthor, all points, just as if you'd talking to an idiot (which you BTW do)? [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Fri, 28 Jun 2002 17:57:00

dj_jl

Do the following: 1. Open your WadAuthor config file in text editor. 2. Find section [Things.Classes] and add the following: 15 0x0001 0 255 0 NPC 3. In section [Things.Types] add following line: 0x2f02 15 20 cmaga1 city mage I found where's the problem with brown serpents, new binaries are here. I also uploaded my own map here where for testing purposes I also added city mage. BTW When koraxdev will be working again?
Sun, 30 Jun 2002 10:13:00

RambOrc

Hey I just tried your test map and the city mage that walks around and talks to you is AWESOME... [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] I'd say the question of the conversation module is mostly solved. I'll set up my WadAuthor and put the mage in the city map and try to corner him in cluttered areas and see what happens to the 3rd person camera.
Sun, 30 Jun 2002 12:52:00

RambOrc

Just tried it in the town and it's really cool... made a screenshot, I'll post it shortly in the Korax news. Sorry about Koraxdev, it'll take some time yet... up to the end of next week I've the usual load, i.e. not only work but also school and scouting, from which only work remains after July 7 (for about 6 weeks). I also have to move a couple of websites from the old to the new server before the 15th July. Once all this is over, I'll have signficantly more time for my other projects, i.e. not only setting up Koraxdev but also starting level design in a big way. It's a somewhat unlucky combination with Mago going away shortly afterwards, but there is a lot we can concentrate in those 2 months that doesn't require artwork. Hey Mago, before you start feeling bad about the long break, think of it the way that it'll give me, the slowest of the team, more time to create/recycle maps. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Sun, 30 Jun 2002 15:20:00

mago

Hey, do you mean the Mage actually talks??? That's GREAT!!!!! [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] I can't wait to see it! And it already use the 3rd person camera? Awesome! Oh yes, it makes me think about Heretic 2. What if we could implement a 3rd person view ( along with the normal one) in SE or SP, like the one in H2 (of course, not as dynamic, something like the 1st person camera, but higher, and behind the player) ? See you, I'm off to check the map and the city mage! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Sun, 30 Jun 2002 15:38:00

RambOrc

Adding a 3rd person camera for actual gameplay is a bad idea with those low-detailed, sparely animated sprites. Even Heretic II's thousand times more detailed and animated 3D model looks old and pitiful compared to even more superior 3rd person characters like Ragnar in Rune.
Sun, 30 Jun 2002 15:45:00

mago

At least tell me HOW can I play the wad Janis made with the city mage! What exactly do I have to do ?
Sun, 30 Jun 2002 18:10:00

RambOrc

Put the mapfile into your SE dir, start SE, pull down the console, type "load wad1.wad" (w/o the quotes) and start a new game.
Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:14:00

mago

Hey, I just played the wad1, and man, that talking system is AWESOME!!! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Really good. It's so fun to see Hexen with this feature now, the feature that was the most missed by me and lots of fans, I believe. Lets read the "review" : First the map, which looks great too. It has a realistic proportions, and fit very well the dimensions of real buildings, much better than the kinda low small building in Hexen's maps. The square and the temple entrance are also very good, the columns look great, as does the square decorations and space (I like open spaces). The old city mage is very funny to see, walking around. It's also very good to know that you can actually stay near someone and know that you won't be attacked with no reason, just because you are passing by, like the Monsters (which are fun to fight, but they sure don't like a chat). I noticed the lack of pixels in the mage's head, and I'll correct them as soon as I can, along with some frames I don't like, and an standing position for him too, so he won't be standing in a walking frame, like frozen in motion. The talking system is very clear, funny and well done. The phrases made me laugh, just because they worked (don't think I'm a weirdo or something [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] ), and the chaning in the camera position added for a more dynamic and interesting system. I can't show how happy I am. Thanks a lot Janis! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Anyway, I just have some suggestions (although none of them is important, everything is cool already) : Can the mage (and others NPCs in general) be slowed down a little, their fast animations make them look like moving way faster than they really are (and the way they should be moving). Just slowed down a bit, so we can see a person walking normally, calm. I know everything is in the beginning and all, but could the camera in 3rd view be a litle more far from the characters, so we can see all their bodies and a little bit more of the background. It's already great, but I think they use too much space in the screen. I mean just a bit, not much. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:16:00

mago

RambOrc, when do you intend to post these news? You could also put some hurt skins screens up? I know you asked me for some, but I don't know how to take pics properly, but I could send the frames (the best ones), so people can have a closer look.
Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:26:00

mago

Just to say that the logo is now 95% done, I just have to make one hand for the fighter, a boot and the horns. I should finish it tomorrow or the day after.
Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:34:00

mago

Well, about the 3rd person view, I meant something like Duke Nuken, where you can actually play the "normal" hub mode, and change if you like to the 3rd pv, which is, like I said, nothing more than a slightly higher camera, following the player's sprite (showing all his body, of course). The camera don't really follows him, it's more like attached to him, like if the player were a "weapon" in the camera "hub". It's really funny to see how the player reacts to attacks, and see the projectiles hitting him, knowing where they came from, and see the monsters running after him, instead your "face". I think that if it's easy to implement, we should have it, like an extra feature (this vision is as good for RPGs than the 1st pv is, in my opinion). [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
Mon, 01 Jul 2002 23:38:00

mago

Of course, if you do want to implement it, and if Janis is willing to make it, I would like to see some changes from the one in Duke. The camera should ba far from the player, to allow a wider vision angle, and slightly higher than his head, so we can see whats in front of him.
Tue, 02 Jul 2002 08:59:00

RambOrc

LOL, it's funny to see you having talked to yourself yesterday all day. [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] I want such open spaces in TSP's cities, OTOH the SE town can't get away with wide open spaces, the architecture is too primitive for that. The prob is, the SE town is already something for hundreds of hours. Making a really good-looking advanced town would take literally thousands of hours. The NPC and the PC were fully in the screen for me on several occasion, I guess it all depends on the location. BTW did you notice it's a lot like the Antara talk screen? There the background was always a rendered 3D image from the actual location and changed depending on which direction you clicked on the person from. I've half-finished the new admin center, indeed Koraxdev is up once again. It's not a subdomain any more, but a subdir, http://www.korax-heritage.com/koraxdev/ . You can login by FTP with the name koraxdev and the password bull-djinn [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] . Newly there is also a web-based File Manager, just go to http://korax-heritage.com:20000/file/ and log in with the above info. It takes 1-2 minutes to start the app (and requires an up-to-date Java plugin for your browser), but afterwards you can upload and download files in a graphical interface (and view JPG and GIF images, HTML and TXT files and some other file types online). OTOH images for the news shouldn't go in there, for that I'll make an upload tool. Once that's done, I'll post the URL and the instructions on how to include images in news items. Most probably that'll be the point to open the Korax Admin Center as well. To make screenshots, just pull down the console, type "bind f12 screenshot" (w/o the quotes) and then press F12 any time you want to make a screen, it'll save a TGA file in your game folder. What I'm not sure about, how many visual errors there would be when looking your character from a 3rd person perspective close up. But I agree a 3rd person view as an additional feature would be cool (but not as standard element). 3rd person is not really suited for shooters, as you can't aim nearly as well as in 1st person. I'd say 3rd person can bring out the most from a melee game, but 1st person from a shooter game. I'd also love a mirror feature, i.e. you could go to a mirror, look into it and see yourself. p.s. You're using the word "hub" instead of "HUD" (the "D" stands for "Display"). [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Tue, 02 Jul 2002 10:44:00

Ichor

How about a mirrored floor effect for places like the grand hall in a rich, elaborate looking castle? Another thing you might want to consider that warping effect you see on a hot summer day. This 'heat warping' could be used in places where there's a lot of lava or in the middle of the desert.
Tue, 02 Jul 2002 17:03:00

mago

Yeah, really funny mister! [img]images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Anyway, that's great to hear how the new upload/news system is going to work, it will be way better and easier for me. About the full screen when talking, I meant that it could be different, but it's already more than coool. I just thought of something like this: when you click in the npc, the 3rd pv would appear, showing the player's full body and the background, just as it's already, but with a function that would only allow the npc and the player to be facing each other (facing opposite directions, like the player facing South and the npc facing North), with their standing position always. The camera would stay the same way, changing from angle when a different person talks, like in movies (that feature is REALLY great, I like it a lot! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] ). Don't foget I'm far from being unsatisfied with the new talking system! [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] As for the city, well, maybe the city is too complicated to change, but what about the maps? One of them could be an abandoned city (not that abandoned, with an NPC or 2 hidden), or a ruined one (still, with some npcs around. There HAVE to be npcs in at least one or two maps!!! The tc has to have that feature. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Don't forget to read my guide example, with the maps ideas. By the way, we could have these situation: The player is invading yet another usual abandoned city/castle/maze/swamp/forest, and when he enters a room/area, an script is loaded and some monsters are summoned secretly, along with a npc, and te fight between them begins. It's up to the player save or not the surrounded warrior, so he can learn or talk to him after the battle, or wait to see him die and then pick up his fallen belongs- It's always cool to rescue someone in a mission). If Janis allows it, you even could use the completed map he made ( which is really good), and add it to a bigger map. Oh yes, I just thought of it, but what if the map would be used for another Shop map? That entrance is very cool. About the password, did you know that I'm almost changing my nick name form Mago to Bull-Djinn? It sounds cool too! [img]images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] Alright, I'll take some screenshots as soon as I can. As for errors in 3rd pv, I think there wouldn't be any error. If you don't mind about the lack of frames in the animations, it would be cool. And if it wasn't hard, I could even make another position for the players, like when firing different weapons (punching for the fighter,and a staff for the cleric (2nd and 4th weapon in one). I know it isn't suited for shooters, but the auto tracking system in Hexen is powerful, and would make things easier. The mirror idea is cool, as are Ichor's ideas (I specially like the mirror in the floor), but aren't them too complicated? I guess we will have to wait for Janis to find out... [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]
Tue, 02 Jul 2002 18:35:00

dj_jl

I'm happy that you like my work. BTW that map is meant for SE, so if you have any suggestions, I would like to hear them. Conversation camera location - there will be support for multiple possible camera locations allowing showing dialogue from many different views. Chase camera (AKA 3-rd person view) can be done quite easy. As of graphical problems, I need to implement a function, which checks that camera is not inside a wall. When I will do this (and I will, because it is needed also for conversations), a chase camera mode should be really easy. Mirrors - I haven't done this yet, so this might be interesting. One thing I can say already - this will require a fully hardware accelerated stencil buffer and will not work on some older hardware.
Thu, 04 Jul 2002 08:03:00

mago

And I'm really glad you can do everything we imagine here, Janis. I'm sure this 3rd person view will be apreciated by all, and since you said it isn't difficult (unless that function), I don't thing there's nothing to loose, only to gain. Since I'm here, I have to say that I won't be around much for the next days/weeks, since the phone bill is getting too high, and my mother didn't like it much. I won't be able to go to the net often, but don't worry, I'll keep working on things, and I will check everything in the forums or mail for me, when I furtively log in to send you finished work. I don't know how long it will be like this, but I guess it won't be TOO long... [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] As for the effects, all I have to say is good luck! [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] The logo is 97%, I had to remake some areas that were destroyed accidently by a wrong "fill", so it took me more time. Still, I just have to add the horns now for the Cleric and Fighter, even the little ones in the center are already made (I forgot to mention in the other post that the sword wasn't done yet too, but now it's. It's not anything special, just a good and solid sword, without any decoration or jewels, but when I finish the logo, you can and have to say what you like and don't like, so I can get it fixed [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] ). Anyway, by the time I post this, the logo will probably be finished already, sooo... Since we have green light for the 3rd pv, I'll begin to think about the new frames for the players (I will really like playing it in 3rd pv too [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] ), but I'm already a little late on things, it could take a while. Those exams are killing me, the other day slept 3 hours (went to bed at 4:00 am and got up at 7:00 am), studying like a maniac, and had to make two exam, one after the other (psicology first, and then Drawing). It's sadly keeping me away from the sprites a little, but I'll think of something, no problem. I have to work on the hurt skins, and then the npcs (including our girlfriend (she belongs to us all, I'm not selfish [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Hey... This makes me think about some weird dialogues with her when she is in the game. But don't panic, I'll keep those sick ideas to myslef [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ). Those will take work, but I really wanna make some new frames for the players (to gain time and effort, I'll change only the frames showing their backs and adjacent positions, since there won't be net play, nobody will see them from other point of view). I think they made those low frame animation because the 320 resolution is so low in detail that the players would only notice details when really close (add the extreme diddiculty to get near the bosses, and probably you will never get to see them in detail), but since we will actually see them now, some more frames would be cool. The bigger problem would be the color change, but I guess we could use the bosses' sprites, and hope nobody will notice it.
Fri, 05 Jul 2002 17:03:00

RambOrc

What Mago suggested I wanted to suggest myself as well, i.e. that in the talk mode the 2 characters automatically face each other. This would also make it possible to create only 2 angles of the standing frame (front and back), making it a lot less work to animate them (like swinging arms, holding up fists, moving mouths, bowing heads, etc... no, I don't mean that one character should have all these animations, but rather that one NPC wold swing his arms, the other bow her head now and then, etc.). As for multiple camera locations, I'm not sure it'd be worth the extra amount of graphics to be created (if we have, say 3 PCs and 20 NPCs, we might talk about hundreds of extra sprites for the additional camera positions). Before you all get excited about NPCs in dungeon maps (=all other maps besides the town map), here a strong argument why NPCs should be only in the town, and fights should be anywhere but in the town: in my estimation it reduces the game design work (and also coding time) tremendously. By the simple fact that weapons and spells are disabled in the town and there are no NPCs in the dungeons where you might attack them accidentally, in my estimation hundreds of lines of code and dozens of major bugs are eliminated in advance. Not to mention the uncountable possibilities for the story to proceed and characters to react if you add fight in the town or NPCs (or any kind of interaction at all) in the dungeons. There are full-blood RPGs with this restriction and they are still fine, so I don't see it as a limiting factor to game enjoyment, but could save us literally months of work time on the project. Just my 5 cents, feel free to object. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Another possibility would be to add 2-3 other maps in the game, wedged in between dungeon maps, where monsters can't enter and you can't draw weapons, allowing for a little more variety and still eliminating the extra amount of work. Or if it's only one map, it could be added to the town as, for example, a castle or a citadel, one of the gates could lead to it instead of an outside dungeon map. Or dunno... [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] You see, I plan for TSP to have full interaction and fight in both the towns and the dungeons, but if we start too high we might fall down halfway through (kinda what happened to Korax Alpha, if I wouldn't have come up with the ?dea of KMOD in March 2001, none of you might have ever seen any release of the Korax project before it died). Don't forget we aren't 30 people but 3... Another basic question to ponder about... what's cooler, if you can customize the look of your character from a dozen different clothes and armor types, or if you have a 3rd person camera and mirrors? If there would be only 2 extra sprites per player character, for the front and back standing frames (or maybe 8, if he's animated while talking), it'd be possible to create, say, 15 different flavors of each character class (making it 90 or 360 sprites). If there are 32-128 frames per character, we'll need thousands of sprites. Rather improbable they'd ever be finished. This is a basic Q for SE. In TSP we'll most probably use 3D models where you can just recolor a couple of things on a skin and you have all animations of a 2nd look of a character, making the whole thing rather feasible. But in SE it's really a Q, what do we rather leave out, the lot of different looks or the nifty engine features (which actually rather includes the 3rd person view as well)? I don't want to decide this, we're a team who should agree on some course (and I'll put that in the design guide). I give my vote personally for the 1st version (i.e. less technical features but more different graphical styles). Why? SE is either way years behind current 3D game technology, so a couple of nifty technical features (which were already present in 1998 in games like Heretic II or Unreal, if not sooner) won't really change much. OTOH a classic fantasy style RPG with the feeling achieved among other things through lot of different artwork and a wide range of characters, where you can all play it in real time 1st person 3D is very rare... most RPGs that offer this feeling in the last couple of years give you a hadful of ants to move through the iosometric screen with clicks. At least for me, this whole Korax project is more about bringing back the goold old "glory days" where games still had a great feeling, rather than just trying to beat the technology of titles like Unreal II and DOOM 3 (which will be out around the same time Scattered Evil will). Now it's your turn to vote (and arguments please)... [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Sat, 06 Jul 2002 18:27:00

dj_jl

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
What Mago suggested I wanted to suggest myself as well, i.e. that in the talk mode the 2 characters automatically face each other.
Of course they will face each other. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
As for multiple camera locations, I'm not sure it'd be worth the extra amount of graphics to be created (if we have, say 3 PCs and 20 NPCs, we might talk about hundreds of extra sprites for the additional camera positions).
There won't be - simply choose camera position so that known sprite rotations are used. Multiple camera locations will give more variety, i.e. closer to the speaker, father away, positioned on the left/right side of the oposite actor, etc. Too bad you haven't played DeusEx, because then you would be familiar with this system (Yes, this conversation system is from DeusEx). <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Before you all get excited about NPCs in dungeon maps (=all other maps besides the town map), here a strong argument why NPCs should be only in the town, and fights should be anywhere but in the town: in my estimation it reduces the game design work (and also coding time) tremendously. By the simple fact that weapons and spells are disabled in the town and there are no NPCs in the dungeons where you might attack them accidentally, in my estimation hundreds of lines of code and dozens of major bugs are eliminated in advance. Not to mention the uncountable possibilities for the story to proceed and characters to react if you add fight in the town or NPCs (or any kind of interaction at all) in the dungeons. There are full-blood RPGs with this restriction and they are still fine, so I don't see it as a limiting factor to game enjoyment, but could save us literally months of work time on the project. Just my 5 cents, feel free to object. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
Actually this isn't a problem. You can limit those areas with monster-blocking lines. Killing NPCs - if they are not made killable (like the city mage) there will be no way you can harm him. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Another possibility would be to add 2-3 other maps in the game, wedged in between dungeon maps, where monsters can't enter and you can't draw weapons, allowing for a little more variety and still eliminating the extra amount of work.
Actually it will not require any extra amount of work. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Another basic question to ponder about... what's cooler, if you can customize the look of your character from a dozen different clothes and armor types, or if you have a 3rd person camera and mirrors? ...
I will vote for the second version. Those different looks will take way longer to create with sprites (even if we are cheating by not drawing all rotations). When we will have models, then it will be easier to customize the look of the character by. for example, showing it's current weapon (Vavoom already does this in Doom when playing with models).
Mon, 08 Jul 2002 01:15:00

mago

Well, I also think the 2nd option is the best. I really don't think this 3rd pv will give much work for me, only if I want. You see, I really wanted to see it in SE not only because it's a cool feature, but also because it would be something different, something nobody ever did. Inspired by Heretic 2 (I "stole" it from a friend), I thought about MAYBE adding some more frames for the kinda poor animations, but then I realized that some others aspects of the game would also need to be added in the 3rd pv, like the armor pieces, and different weapons. Of course, I have lots of things to do already, like those npcs, but since this new feature seems to me very cool, it grew higher on my list, and that's why I keep talking about it. It's not a question of competition with Doom 3. If we can improve this awesome game a little bit, and please everyone who plays it, I think we should really try, because for me, that's the pourpose of a mod or tc (of course, I'll be the first to play it, because much of what I do and suggest is something I would like to see in the game myself). And you must remember that this 3rd pv will be optional, and won't be as important as the 1st pv. It will be a great extra feature, in my opinion. It's fun when you talk about talking animations. I think I already said it before, but I really don't know how will I make them. The graphics are so small that even a deslocation of a pixel may make the image look messy and unfocused. Personally, and I hope I won't make you sad, I think it should be left for TSP, since there will be models, and model animation works much better. The talking system is already such an achievement, that even if it would be just as it is now, I don't think anybody would complain, in fact I think everybody would be really happy. I'm not saying I won't do it, though. It depends on you guys. As for npcs in maps: I never questioned about not having fights in the city, I just suggested we could have some npcs in maps. They shouldn't be important for the mission, or just be the objective of a side quest (not very important too), so they could die and nothing would happen. I just thought of types of npcs, like a wounded or lost warrior (who would fight any monster near him) or a mage/citizen/traveller/priest/oldman/witch/etc in a secret or hidden room (away from monsters, if you don't want fights), that would give you informations on keys, or the best way to kill something, or the place where a certain item is located, you know that kind of thing. They wouldn't be a key aspect in the map, just an extra, someone you could talk to (even if just one or two phrases), something more than just dry corpses or monsters. They could all be in hidden places, they just should be there somewhere in some maps. In fact I thought of something like Heretic 2, where the npcs actually give you info about the whole game objective, and I think it would work in the SE story line(like a priest who senses a strange and dark power taking form below that mountain, or a merchant/king/duke/nobleman/prince/mage/master of a guild/etc who have been hearding those strange rumors about a forbidden cult....). And RambOrc, why not having the 3rd pv AND the npcs/characters? [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] They are different areas (programming - Janis , 2d art- Mago), so I really think everything can be done. Of course, the main problem would be me, not only because Janis has proved his value lots of times, and he already said it can be made (the 3rd pv), but also because it's a complicated time of the year for me, with the exams and the travell, which are and will keep me away from the work a little, but if Janis can make it, why not? [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] I repeat: this would be an extra feature! It was in Duke and everybody knows it from the 1st pv, not the 3rd, but it was there to make things even more fun (at least I think it was. In fact I just got to know the feature in a tc for Duke, the Starship Troopers tc, which is very good). Oh yeah, about the SE story line, I just remebered that the leader will be a Heresiarch, right? Plus the hurt skin, do you want to make some mod on the sprite itself, to make it different from the one in Hexen? I don't know, maybe a couple of horns, or a different symbol in his dress, something like that.
Mon, 08 Jul 2002 18:30:00

dj_jl

Actually it depends only on you Mago, because I can add 4rd person view in 5 minutes (it's really that cheap). I haven't done it yet, because I upgraded my HDD to the bigger one, wasted entire day trying to install both - win98 and win2k, then I had to install soft for both, and last days I spent in adding models from DoomsDay to Vavoom. I promise that tomorow I will do something for SE. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] About conversations - I'm planing to implement another type of conversation - a non-interactive conversation. These are conversations where player isn't taking part and are played in first person mode (or 3rd). This can be used for NPCs to say something to you or NPC speaking to another NPC.
Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:49:00

RambOrc

OK, this means we've been deciding with a 2:1 majority for the 2nd version, i.e. the 3rd person view and the rest. As for the talking animations, I thought more about gestures like moving an arm or the head, not so much about moving the mouth (though it could be recolored a bit to show it's open, I guess a try wouldn't hurt). Janis if you think this all won't be a real prob, than just go ahead and let's hope we won't produce too many possible breakdowns in the game flow. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Special Heresiarch? What about a different colored robe with golden symbols? Or a slightly bigger Heresiarch (though I guess that would be rather a prob)?
Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:36:00

dj_jl

Today I implemented conversation scripts. Of course at current stage it's very limited, but you can start creating your conversations for your maps. New binaries are in se-bin.zip, my map in jl-map01.zip, all on koraxdev. I added a lots of comments in the conversation script, that's included with my map and I guess that you will understand everything. Currently scripts must be in directory 'Conversations' and have the same name as the map, i.e. 'map01.con' for example.
Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:38:00

RambOrc

Hey this is real cool. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Dunno about Mago, but for me the script language looks rather easy to use, especially compared to the darned JavaScript I was hacking for hours last week to create it exactly that HTML code I wanted it on-the-fly (the one that lets you put a clickable thumbnail into the newspost in one single step, requiring no HTML knowledge from the poster). Are texts displayed always for the same length of time or does it depend on the number of characters in the text? Can a single speech contain a whole paragraph of text, i.e. will the engine make carriage returns if the text is longer than the screen width?
Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:44:00

mago

WE WON! C'mon RambOrc, please don't be pessimist. You will see that everything is going to be ok in the end, and the mod will be great. How many times do I have to say that the 3rd pv will be an extra, and won't interfere in the actual game? [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Janis please do it! About the porblems with Windows and all, no problemo. If it wasn't for the exams I'm sure this 3rd pv issue would be already solved (which means I would have already finished the sprites needed, or at least the major part of them), just to show that those kinds of little delays are always happening. I hope you huys liked the logo. In fact, I think I would redo it, because I thought of some others ideas, but then again, maybe later. I'm already busy around here! [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Hey, have you heard about Brazil? We won the world cup! Five times, including this one. At least in something we are good (sports, I won't mention violence or poverty ... ). But you have to admit one thing: there are some really beautiful girls around there!!! [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] A shame I can't be near my country, but girls are not everything in one's life right? Some opportunities and studies are also important (I wouldn't be able to do anything anyway, I already have a girlfriend, as you know...). At least in this place I got the chance to know you guys! [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] "Yeah, but what about the sprites?" you may be questioning right now. Well, I couldn't do much today, and I keep coming here while I can't, but sometime I will have to stop. Anyway, I will keep the agenda while off-line: Hurt skins, woman, other npcs, sub-types of monsters, new weapons in-screens, and while I'm on it, some sprites for the 3rd pv. I finally received the Witchaven games!!! I have to thank you again, mr RambOrc, for this most apreciatted gift. And they came in the original boxes, with manuals and everything one needs! I started playing them today, but already got some serious problems (the 640x480 svga version for Witch 1 doesn't work, it says I don't support it, and the setup utility turned out to be more like an "unutility", with lots of problems in the sound card selection and it oddly don't keep the changes I make in the controls, and since I'm used to fight hand-to-hand (in games, of course, not in real life ) strafing around, it gets really hard to me (the right ctrl doesn't work, just the left one, which is to far from the keys "," and "." the defaults). You were right once again. The engine has some serious problems, some of which I didn't even remember. The enemies are too "slipping", you run past them while charging for action, and your attacks seems hard to hit the target. The physics is also kinda weak, your jumps are too fast and you fall from plataforms quite easily. The keys doesn't respond well too, like you said. You gotta press for a while instead of just click on some key. The animations are also poor, with a odd velocity/ frame rate, although the graphics are really beautiful. There are advantages, however. The ceilings can have multiples sectors like the ground, which is really cool for caves or ruined places. The are also the light/shadow feature, and if somebody could work on that holes in the ceilings, there could be really good areas, in terms of lights (like maybe the floor os a forest, with the sunlight coming trhough the "leaves" and "trees" etc) There are also slopes, which is always cool for realistics landscapes and floors. In the gameplay area, the difficulty is too higher, the enemies are too powerful and it gets really hard to fight them in melee combats, since they always get to hit you sometime, making some serious damages, and although you can survive one, as the time passes you will be more and more damaged, untill you finally die. It's hard to just enter in a fight and escape unharmed (altough it's realistic, doesn't work very well in games, since it is very frustating for the player. Anyway, I like realistic fights, but the ones which are so realistic that you have a good chance to or die or win without receiving a hit, if you master the techiniques of attack and defense, like in Thief). Well after these critic point of view, I just have to say that I'm very happy to taste some new and good games (they still are GOOOD games anyway)at last, and the game is already giving me some more ideas (don't you feel just satisfied when you hit an ogre in Witch or another hard foe and you see those pieces of meat/armor/blood flying ? [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Maybe with an option for more gore, SE would have it also, but wihtout any mod in sprites. You just have to add the pieces that fall from the exploding enemies to the normal taking damage serie and voila. Of course I could make some little pieces myslef, to be used as generic pieces or whatever...) Yeah, I know, I know... All the suggestions I make are for superfluity and unnecessary features, but that's my point. I just want to call your attention to details that can make the Mod richer and funnier, and I tend to focuse my area, the sprites editing, for obvious reasons. [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:30:00

dj_jl

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
Are texts displayed always for the same length of time or does it depend on the number of characters in the text? Can a single speech contain a whole paragraph of text, i.e. will the engine make carriage returns if the text is longer than the screen width?
Currently all texts are displayed for 3 seconds and cannot wrap. But don't wory, the length will depend on text length or (if specified) audio length. Text will wrap, but the amouns of displayed lines will be limited.

Back to the Korax Forum Archives