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Question about Vavoom

Tue, 08 Nov 2005 12:07:52

Crimson Wizard

Hello to everybody. I am a novice to Hexen editing, doing this about 3 weeks only (i edited some other games earlier, such as Doom and Half-Life, but i didn't created much), and it is just like sudden flash of interest. I spoke with some guys on ravenforums.com asking to give me advices, then one of them (it was [color=indigo:2kb13rwl]Ichor [/color:2kb13rwl]actually) had acquainted me with JHexen. Currently I am trying to create my own sortof RPG mod based on it (and I already have some progress). But after sometime I learned about Vavoom and I think I like it more than JHexen, even though I haven't seen it in action yet, only on screen shots (on korax heritage main page). Main reason is different visual feeling, I suppose, it fits to Hexen atmosphere better than JHexen's. And so I've got two questions about it - a major and a minor. [color=blue:2kb13rwl]A minor question [/color:2kb13rwl]is just of curiosity, it may be silly one, but I only want to be absolutely sure: do Vavoom really allows to make slope surfacesand fully 3d objects (such as tables), or they are just some visual trick? I also didn't get how you made these windows. It is really looks like there are two sectors on different heights, alike in full-3d games. [color=darkblue:2kb13rwl]Major question:[/color:2kb13rwl] I am writing a DLL for JHexen right now (as I already mentioned). Is it possible to use this code with Vavoom port of I change to Vavoom in future?
Tue, 08 Nov 2005 15:13:18

RambOrc

1) Yes, you can do all those things you mention with Vavoom, it doesn't even take much time. Here are a couple of screenshots to show them in-game, these have been done by me so I have first hand experience in saying it doesn't take much more time than building traditional Hexen maps. Lots of 3D floors inside a tower: [img:26uz04bo]http://www.korax-heritage.com/images/newspics/0103041.jpg[/img:26uz04bo] Translucent windows (like dirty glass) first from the outside than from the inside: [img:26uz04bo]http://www.korax-heritage.com/images/scatteredevil/koraxse_newtown02.jpg[/img:26uz04bo] [img:26uz04bo]http://www.korax-heritage.com/images/scatteredevil/koraxse_newtown03.jpg[/img:26uz04bo] [img:26uz04bo]http://www.korax-heritage.com/images/scatteredevil/koraxse_newtown01.jpg[/img:26uz04bo] On the two latter screenshots you can also see slopes used for non-flat roofs. 2) The two engines are incompatible, you'd have to redo 100% of the code when changing. Since you're at the beginning, do yourself a huge favor and go with Vavoom. If you do it, you'll thank me later. If you do not, you'll curse yourself pretty soon because jHexen is unsupported and abandoned, whereas Vavoom source continually gets new features and fixes.
Wed, 09 Nov 2005 12:03:25

Crimson Wizard

Well, these screenshots above were the last point in persuading me to change for Vavoom. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> I'll see vavoom-engine.com for downloads, but still I wish to ask just in case: what tools I should (or - it's better for me to -) use when editing game for Vavoom? - I mean game and maps too. (I am using WadAuthor now. Will it support crossing sectors with different heights and slopes?) And what really worries me is the question: does Vavoom C possess the same possibilities, as DLLs in JHexen? When I was overviewing Hexen source contents, which are contents of JHexen DLL project, I found out that you may change almost everything in the game. For example, I've created multipaged cluster messages and multilined hint messages. Can I do the same with Vavoom?
Wed, 09 Nov 2005 12:59:47

RambOrc

There is a config file available for WadAuthor that allows you to add and edit all Vavoom specialties in maps. As for VavoomC, AFAIK it's way more powerful than the stuff you can do in jHexen, but Janis should know better.
Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:15:33

Firebrand

You can do a lot of stuff in Vavoom, just take some time to understand how things works and how you can improve them <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->, it's not really difficult, take a look at the Korax Arena beta if you want to know <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->, and wait for the next version of it, it's going to be a real blast!
Wed, 09 Nov 2005 14:46:23

Crimson Wizard

Well, let me ask - I do not need full Vavoom source, don't I? As I understand this, full Vavoom source is used to compile vavoom executable. And I need progs pack. Also I do not need just any application - like MSVC or Borland C++ Builder - to compile my mod. Is this right? I ask because all this stuff looks very complicated at first glance.
Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:22:30

Firebrand

You are right, the vavoom source it's for the Vavoom executable, the progs are for the gameplay changes, you don't need any special utils but the Vavoom C Compiles (vcc.exe), if you don't have it, PM me and I'll give you a link to it <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->, you can even edit the source files with the winblows notepad easily <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->.
Wed, 09 Nov 2005 20:23:19

Crimson Wizard

Well, thanks, but I got just everything from vavoom web-site. BUT! Although Vavoom C is very good (and thankfully, it is based on C++ at last, so we can use classes here!!), it has some differences in many procedures implementations. I was trying to convert my code that created multipaged cluster messages into Vavoom C and found it almost impossible, because some important functions, which i need to edit, were misplaced there! Now I asked that question on vavoom forum, and I really hope its creator(s) will answer me... <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? --> EDIT: well, that's not a problem anymore.
Thu, 10 Nov 2005 13:35:55

Crimson Wizard

I've got a very strange bug that affects sky during playing. It looks like sky texture is not paralaxed, but just copied multiple times. What I need to do to fix this?
Thu, 10 Nov 2005 21:46:44

leilei

skybox?
Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:21:04

Crimson Wizard

That sais not much for me. <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: --> Well, I heard about skyboxes, but I do not know how (or where) I should fix it. This happens to just any game I launch with Vavoom port - i mean original games, not my mod. Well, and last two questions (I hope that they be last for nearest future <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> ). Can anyone give a brief explanation on 1) how I should use ceiling&floor slope things, 2) and 3d floors. About 2nd I may add, that I created several 3d platforms hanging in air, but for some reason they do not have vertical surfaces, only horizontal (top&bottom flats).
Fri, 11 Nov 2005 13:53:26

Firebrand

I would recommend to you that you read the Vavoom Wiki, it has a lot of documentation (that it's still in development), of the many features Vavoom has, it already has all the sector and line special functions supported at the time, I think it will help you a lot, it also covers a lot of other interesting features like skyboxes <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->, hope this is useful for you.
Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:49:27

Crimson Wizard

Well, slopes and 3d floors are done. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:05:32

Crimson Wizard

Please! Can anyone explain me how to turn these skyboxes off and get back to parallax? I didn't change anything, just copied main WADs of Doom, Doom2 and Hexen into Vavoom folder and launched these games. And everywhere sky is broken into multiple pieces. This looks more or less well in Hexen, but just awfull in Doom. And I do not know how to change this. <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( -->
Sat, 12 Nov 2005 18:30:35

RambOrc

Firebrand was working on a skybox series for all original games and that it'll be included in Vavoom, I thought by now it'd be included for at least DOOM, check at the Vavoom forums for more info.
Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:07:51

Firebrand

They aren't included yet, but I've already got a new version of them that is like the skyboxes for Doomsday (which are really good), the real thing is that I really haven't been able to upload it anywhere, I might upload them tomorrow and post a link for you here. As for the broken sky, it's Vavoom's solution for how Doom engine renders the sky as a "drum" image, which looks really bad in OpenGL, there's no way of disabling it, unless you use a skybox, I'm afraid, but making a skybox it's better and will make the levels look really cool and it's not very difficult to work it out, Vavoom wiki has a tutorial on how to make one and I can help you if you have any problem <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->.
Sun, 13 Nov 2005 13:58:37

Crimson Wizard

Well, the only thing I know now is that I should wait for the next Vavoom version. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> And, by the way, RambOrc, you were wrong when said that I have to change 100% of my code to convert it to Vavoom C. I had to change only about 25%. <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->
Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:49:09

Crimson Wizard

I have a BIG question to Korax'es Heritage designers (map creators). I am asking this here mostly because earlier I asked this on Vavoom's forum, but I haven't got the answer yet (I am very impatient person <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> ). Shortly, I do not understand how to create slopes in 3dfloors properly, I always get some weird thing when I try. I've described problem here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.vavoom-engine.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=593">http://www.vavoom-engine.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=593</a><!-- m --> May be I am wrong and do not understand something? Anyway, I just looked on your project's screenshots once again and saw that there are a lot of sloped 3dfloors. I would be very glad if anyone explain how to make these work. Thanks. PS. And by the way, is the Scattered Evil has just anything to download except these screenshots? I mean some playable maps? To say truth, I am interested more not in playing it, but to see examples of good map building for Vavoom.
Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:11:22

RambOrc

On the Vavoom website, there is a downloadable example map for Hexen which uses slopes on 3D floors, have you looked at that yet?
Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:40:38

Crimson Wizard

Yes, I did (as well as with Doom and Heretic demos). But I am still a bit confused. For example, here's one of your 'SE' shots: [img:vwz3emrc]http://www.korax-heritage.com/images/scatteredevil/koraxshot_080-01.jpg[/img:vwz3emrc] As I may notice, there is a number of... well, do not know how better call these church furniture... desks? tables? anyway - there are two rows of these desks and each of desk have a sloped 3dfloor. Does this mean, that when creating this map designer put a row of dummy sectors with 3dfloor lindef parallel to these desks, so that each pair of desks has one, unique dummy sector tagged with it? And I wish to ask another one question. I just noticed a note in 'SE' news page, that was posted back in 2002, about NPC interaction (dialog) system. Does this feature exist in Vavoom too? Is it the same as implemented in Strife progs, or it was created exclusively for "SE"?
Thu, 12 Jan 2006 12:41:02

Crimson Wizard

Yes, I did (as well as with Doom and Heretic demos). But I am still a bit confused. For example, here's one of your 'SE' shots: [img:1s1tn1cj]http://www.korax-heritage.com/images/scatteredevil/koraxshot_080-01.jpg[/img:1s1tn1cj] As I may notice, there is a number of... well, do not know how better call these church furniture... desks? tables? anyway - there are two rows of these desks and each of desk have a sloped 3dfloor. Does this mean, that when creating this map designer put a row of dummy sectors with 3dfloor lindef parallel to these desks, so that each pair of desks has one, unique dummy sector tagged with it? And I wish to ask another one question. I just noticed a note in 'SE' news page, that was posted back in 2002, about NPC interaction (dialog) system. Does this feature exist in Vavoom too? Is it the same as implemented in Strife progs, or it was created exclusively for "SE"?
Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:53:32

RambOrc

That screenshot was made back on the Doomsday engine, no slopes or 3D floors there, these pews are MD2 models. The dialogue system was written exclusively for SE on the Doomsday engine, not yet ported into Vavoom because currently all programming work is channeled to Korax Arena. If you want to see that engine in action, play KMOD 3, 3.0 uses the old SE engine (based on Doomsday) with lots of features disabled.
Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:03:51

Firebrand

Also some of the slopes you see in the town are models too (just to make it clear, heh!). For sloped 3d floors to work you need to align vertically or horizontally the dummy sector with the sector you want to slope (as to when to know if it's vertically or horizontally it's not yet clear to me, so you might want to try both ways). It's a bit tricky to do it, but if you get the hang of it, it becomes easier <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->.
Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:47:59

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":296nsy9j]That screenshot was made back on the Doomsday engine, no slopes or 3D floors there, these pews are MD2 models. A pity... <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> [quote="Firebrand":296nsy9j]For sloped 3d floors to work you need to align vertically or horizontally the dummy sector with the sector you want to slope (as to when to know if it's vertically or horizontally it's not yet clear to me, so you might want to try both ways). It's a bit tricky to do it, but if you get the hang of it, it becomes easier . Well, seems that I've understood this right, finally. (I suppose it MUST be written down in Vavoom Wiki). The thing that confused me was the thought, that since you always have to align these dummy sectors then you must construct too much of these, because you cannot use one dummy sector for all similar sloped 3dfloors, as you can do with non-sloped 3dfloors.
Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:32:54

RambOrc

[quote="Firebrand":gkcxhvkw]For sloped 3d floors to work you need to align vertically or horizontally the dummy sector with the sector you want to slope (as to when to know if it's vertically or horizontally it's not yet clear to me, so you might want to try both ways). I think it depends on the orientation of the slope object, but I'm not sure either. <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: -->
Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:13:35

Crimson Wizard

Well, if I am right, the most true way to make this is to create a dummy sector as a copy from subsector (in which sloped 3dfloor should be located) and place this dummy-copy positioned parallel to original one. For example, if your 3dfloor should slope from South to North (or vice versa), Y coordinates of dummy-copy must match Y coordinates of original sector. Otherwise, if slope goes from E to W (or vice versa) X coordinates must match. If you have slope of some other direction... well, I suppose you just need to place these sectors parallel... somehow. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->
Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:41:50

Firebrand

That sounds like the way to do it, surely it might work <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->.
Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:15:30

Crimson Wizard

I must add, that dummy sector can be of any width (even very thin - to save map space), but it must be as long, as origin sector, if you understand what I mean.

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