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Marine player character in Arena

Mon, 05 Jan 2004 15:53:16

RambOrc

Please also post pros and cons when voting.
Mon, 05 Jan 2004 16:01:07

RambOrc

Pros - it'd make the gameplay even cooler and more varied - it might win us more KA players - it might help give us better coverage at Doomworld Cons - it's got nothing to do with KA's 100% fantasy setting - since we'd get all player sprites, in-screen weapon graphics and weapon/player sounds out of the DOOM wadfile and put into the KA wad and thus not require DOOM to play the DOOM character, we might get into trouble with id. And requiring both Hexen and DOOM original game for this mod might in the end rather decrease the gamer base - of course, there is also the possibility to try to get Raven to declare Hexen artwork free to use for us, meaning we wouldn't have to require a hexen.wad from the gamers. Hey just got another idea... what about using the graphics and sounds of the Freedoom project (or some similar name)?
Mon, 05 Jan 2004 16:19:09

Moose

Pros: -What you said. Counter your Con: -If UCA Marines can open a portal to hell I'm sure they could find some way to open one to Cronos, after a bit of repopulation anyway <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Con: -What you said about Id although I guess it wouldn't hurt to contact them and see. Whats this 'freedoom'?
Mon, 05 Jan 2004 17:13:54

Ichor

Pros: Same as the others. Cons: The marine's weapons don't use mana, with the possible exception of the plasma gun and BFG-9000. Conventional weapons and those based on technology won't go well with the Tome of Power (assuming you use it). However, it could be used to create a variation of the Berserk. I guess you could enchant the bullets to create extra elemental damage. The BFG-9000 will be a tough one because it's already insanely powerful anyway.
Mon, 05 Jan 2004 17:17:02

Moose

[quote="Ichor":3b03k4kz]The BFG-9000 will be a tough one because it's already insanely powerful anyway. Not really, you could make a Q3 (rapid fire) style BFG for it powered up.
Mon, 05 Jan 2004 17:57:04

Camper

Yo I've got a little idea. Why don't we say that the weapons of the "marine guy" did magically change upon entering chronos, alas they use now mana and do look a little bit different. Maybe this would solve the possible problem with ID.
Mon, 05 Jan 2004 18:39:58

Ichor

Another possibility could be that he has a device (probably invented by UAC when they discovered Cronos) that converts mana to energy, and can will allow them to be affected by the Tome of Power. However, this only accounts for the energy based weapons. Bullet based weapons remain a mystery. The only way around this is to simply not include this type of weapons and replace them with the latest UAC technology or demonic (Doom 64's Unmaker for example) weapons.
Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:19:26

RambOrc

Contacting id is no use, they don't care shit about the gamers, unless their mods get popular, then they unleash their asshole lawyer on them to fuck them big way. <!-- s:x --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mad.gif" alt=":x" title="Mad" /><!-- s:x --> Freedoom is a project to use the DOOM source code which is open source and recreate all graphics and sounds from scratch so that it won't be copyrighted any more - this way everybody can plays DOOM legally for free. There is a basic thing it seems I haven't told in the forums, only to Camper this far (though I think I posted it in the forums here too): in a map, weapons are put by number, regardless of class, i.e. a weapon lying on the ground is always a #3, no matter which class wants to pick it up. The same weapon even looks different depending on which class you play at that moment. The same could be done to the ammo, it could look something else for each class, like ammo boxes for the marine, spellbooks for the mage, holy scrolls for the cleric, etc. But even if we leave the mana cubes as universal ammo, I don't see why it can't power a shotgun just as well as a magic axe, a longbow or a summon spell. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Tome of Power: it isn't planned for Korax Arena, at least not at the moment, which I know is a shame but building up an arsenal of up to 54 weapons (6 classes x 9 weapons, Discs of Repulsion is universal) and balancing them is already an insane amount of work - so making secondary weapon functions or special tomed-up features would complicated matters immensely. Of course the Tome could be nothing but a Quad Damage, if you think it makes sense that could be done pretty easily. BFG: it all depends on the exact damage you code for a weapon - the principle of the BFG itself is not so groundbreaking, I mean a Wraithverge isn't any friendlier. Indeed if you take a look at this topic, you'll see the #8 is pretty much an ultimate weapon for every class. I mean, getting in a sure kill for 75% of all your ammo is a fair thing IMO, OK you killed that guy (or several), but there are more and also the dead ones are coming back at once, and now you stand there with all your ammo depleted. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> As for suiting the story/world, that's IMO not a concern for Korax Arena, we'll be mixing Heretic and Hexen which already doesn't go together if you go strictly by the story - and depending on several factors, the mix could include Hexen II and Witchaven as well. True, throwing DOOM into the mix is a bit different as the others are all fantasy worlds, but the point is that it's a mix that's all about gameplay. In this way, it's the opposite of SE which is very strictly following the story and world of Hexen (hence no new classes for example). p.s. 4 people entering the discussion this far and only 2 voting... <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: -->
Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:35:06

Ichor

I've had my share of fun trying to get the weapons balanced. The way I did it was to use a certain boss monster (Blood Lich, Maulotauror, etc.) as a reference. All three classes should use around the same amount of mana to kill a certain enemy for that weapon slot (with slight variances in some cases). After some tinkering, tweaking, and bug fixing, I think I've gotten it fairly balanced. Of course, the fifth weapon is totally balanced because it's the same for all three classes, heheh.
Mon, 05 Jan 2004 21:13:29

RambOrc

And you even had an easier job since CG3 is SP only, right? <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->
Mon, 05 Jan 2004 21:46:13

Ichor

Of course. The only problem I would see is the mage's powered up wand, which is more or less the powered up Dragon Claw of Heretic. It uses no ammo, and can really sting. Most of the weapons would kill instantly if used on another player, particularly the powered up Quietus. I did have a hard time with the powered up Wraithverge though. I spent days trying to get it right, but I couldn't, mainly because the Frost Lich uses the very same attack. The problem was that I was firing tornados that bulldozed over enemies, but when one is fired at me or one is reflected back at me, it damages me like the Iron Lich's tornado, which was just plain illogical (especially considering that I had much less health than most of the enemies). I didn't want to get rid of the Frost Lich's tornado, so I had to totally change the powered up Wraithverge. By the way, have you noticed that the Firestorm sometimes won't even destroy trees on the first shot? That's because the rotating radius of those little flames is just a little too large. I reduced that number by either 2 or 4 (I can't remember which right now), and it works perfectly now. It's also a lot more effective on Centaurs as well.
Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:14:27

RambOrc

Because of multiplayer-only orientation, balancing the weapons will mean many of them becoming way less powerful than they were in Hexen/Heretic/etc. SP. Their ammo usage will vary a lot as well. Which will mean in turn that the couple of monsters in KA will get scaled-down HP too.
Mon, 05 Jan 2004 22:35:38

The 4th Class

<!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> : + Everything aforementioned + KA does need more variety in characters and items for greater interest and popularity <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( --> : - Everything aforementioned - It may be more creative to create a custom class from scratch - The marine is puny (AFAIR he's about 56 units tall, 8 units shorter than the Hexen classes - OTOH that is the same height as the Heretic. O well - scratch this one) - The only two Hexen weapons in which the projectile is of infinite speed are the Firestorm and the many wands of the Mage. The Heretic has two weapons of this kind: the Elvenwand and the DragonClaw. The Marine has four weapons of this kind: the Pistol, Shotgun, Supershotgun, and the Chaingun. The Supershotgun is extremely powerful, and the other players won't have a chance to dodge the missiles, creating an unfair advantage.
Mon, 05 Jan 2004 23:29:44

RambOrc

You all seem to forget a very important thing: weapon damages will be tweaked a LOT! I could imagine a Marine profile where he has this undodgable instant fire stuff, very low ammo usage (e.g. from 200 red mana he could fire 200 shots), but very low damage as well - meaning he'd be about very good footwork and good aim. This is just an example, but the basic idea is here - each character class should require a unique gaming style.
Tue, 06 Jan 2004 08:12:19

dj_jl

Pros: Same as other. Cons: Nothing comes to mind. As of adding, we actually don't need to take the graphics, we can use models instead with no sprite version at all.
Tue, 06 Jan 2004 13:17:33

RambOrc

I currently plan no 3D models for KA at all, for speed and simplicity reasons I'm for a sprite-only version ATM. Using 3D models would greatly decrease performance I think.
Tue, 06 Jan 2004 23:56:18

Firebrand

I think we should include the marine to make people more happy with the mod. About the problems with it, I think that every class could have it's own ammo (with the things that Ramborc mentioned before), and I also think that numbering the weapons (and maybe the ammo) can be a good idea, that could open more space to add any class that we think of, about the sprites and sounds, I think that the best solution is to use the ones from FREEDOOM, of course I don't know if you have some other ideas though.
Wed, 07 Jan 2004 00:14:15

RambOrc

I just took a look at some Freedoom screenshots and I'm not exactly happy with what I saw there - the stuff looks so different from the original DOOM that with that effort we could create our own arsenal from scratch. A definite possibility is to use the original DOOM artwork and hope that id will never screw us about it - and if worst comes to worst, we could replace the marine class with something else or drop it from the public distribution.
Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:10:44

mago

Pros: Getting the Marine in there would get DOOM gamers more familiar wih the KA universe because they can relate with the player they are used to. Also, the contrast between the two games would be interesting. Cons: I'm not sure about the technology issues... The marine weapons not only have coninuous fire (machine gun, plasma rifle....) but also have punch (super shotgun, rocket launcher...). That means he would have always the advantage on ranged combat ( more fire rate, and more versatility - great number of weapon, thus different types of attacks and damage). This could be fixed by balanced damage, as RambOrc suggested. Another minor con is the chainsaw: it would be frustating for the Cleric, Witchaven guy and Warrior to get near the Marine and be damaged by a continuous attack (while their own are repeated blows). I guess the solution would be to take it out of his arsenal and let only the punch animation for close combat.
Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:32:14

RambOrc

If one player has a continuous attack that makes 2 HP damage every second and the other has a phased attack that makes 8 HP damage at a punch and takes 5 seconds to recover, that means that a player with good footwork willl prefer the phased attack and a player with bad footwork will prefer the continous one. In above example, if they stand facing each other and none budges, the Cleric will deal out 8 HP damage in the time the marine does 10 HP damage. OTOH if they always jump apart, jump together, hack at each other, jump apart etc. then if the Cleric is timing good, he'll cause 8 HP damage at every encounter whereas the Marine will cause 2 or 4 depending on luck. Balancing means not that everything's 100% the same but that all in all if all classes are played by a moderately skilled player who prefers that class, everyone has a roughly equal chance to win.
Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:19:46

The 4th Class

Another good strategy would be to attack the marine from behind, then the Fighter's triple-punch action would render him into pulp.
Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:00:40

Ichor

I'd rather use the Timon's Axe.
Mon, 12 Jan 2004 19:04:24

RambOrc

That's not a slot #1 weapon and uses mana. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->
Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:06:20

Ichor

Only if it hits something that can be killed. Pick one up and you have enough for 13 hits, 2 or 3 of which will be enough to kill anyone with armor. But since you're talking about the first weapon, I'd just be a mage and pelt everyone with my Sapphire Wand from some far off tower, heheh.
Mon, 12 Jan 2004 20:19:22

Moose

You'll have trouble there, the mages new #1 weapon is the staff off Heretic.
Mon, 12 Jan 2004 21:48:38

Ichor

Heh. Oh well... Fighter then, because he moves the fastest.
Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:28:53

RambOrc

It all depends on what values we will implement in KA, after all - but if we use original values, both the Marine and the Heretic are faster than any Hexen character (at least that's what the official Hexen strategy guide says).
Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:03:51

The 4th Class

The only class I ever be nowadays is the Mage, for his Red Wand. I may be the slowest of the six classes, but at any rate Ichor is no threat to me <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> .
Tue, 13 Jan 2004 01:19:44

Ichor

Not if I can bring over some of my weapons. You do not want to get hit with a Thunderstorm, a Dark Sword blast, or some of the other fiendish weapons I've come up with.
Tue, 13 Jan 2004 04:21:37

The 4th Class

Hic caedes et ferrum dimanant.
Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:49:56

RambOrc

Ichor, any of your weapons/spells you'd like to see in KA, just list them and what they do and I'll take a look at them. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->
Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:51:26

The 4th Class

Ah, that means he's gonna beat me. <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( -->
Tue, 13 Jan 2004 23:21:11

Ichor

Here's the whole list (just under the Tome of Power, and minus the Staff of D'Sparil, since it's a secret).
Wed, 14 Jan 2004 01:40:29

The 4th Class

I'm going to be serious now. Ichor, only someone with a brain as big as yours could make such cool new features. The bestiary alone was 3x the original size, and all those new chaos serpents and gargoyles would be excellent additions for KA (It's gonna be one hell of a Summon Contest). The Charm Spell sounds good too, almost like a passive possession spell. I say put them in, RambOrc, maybe even save a few for SE. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->
Wed, 14 Jan 2004 03:07:32

Ichor

The Time Stop might be a bit of a problem to code for multiplayer, though.
Wed, 14 Jan 2004 16:59:45

RambOrc

For SE, a single player RPG, one can't have enough different monsters. OTOH for KA where emphasis is on multiplayer and the 6 classes, monsters are just an added touch - the Heresiarch and the Ettin will get their own places as parts of certain gameplay modes, and I don't plan them to be on any other game modes in turn. For Critter Hunt and Summon Contest, I prefer a couple of cool monsters that are well balanced instead of a large number - I don't want the focus to be on monsters, it's about the 6 character classes. I plan to put together maybe 4-6 monsters from Heretic and Hexen for these game modes, I'll post a poll on it later on.

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