In the end I decided to upload the town map the way it is now... the Southern district where the miners live is mostly finished (the shop hasn't been started yet and some doors are still missing) and the Central/Western area have mostly buildings that look like buildings (if you ignore the missing roofs). The Eastern and Northern parts look pretty much like a coke at McDonald's: too many icecubes... [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] Since it's still in a rather early development stage (if I think of the fact I've been working on it for a year now, that sounds really bad) and currently I'm working on it a bit every day, it doesn't make sense if you change something directly on the map, rather send me change propositions. I'll upload the mines map and the others later on.

OK, OK... [img]images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img] If anyone tries to run the map just like that, you won't get much to see but jumbled textures and it'll crash once you move... to bring it to work, this is what you do: - make a new empty dir - copy hexen.wad into it - extract the KMOD or KMOD2 files into it (KMOD 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 and 2.1 should all be fine) - download the "good" and "custom" model packs from koraxdev and extract it all into the MD2 dir (no subdirs!) - download the files from the koraxdev directory "scatteredevil" and let them overwrite existing config files - modify your batchfile (KMD3D or KMOGL or whatever you use) and replace "-file kmod2.wad" with "-file scatteredevil.wad"

One thing that I didn't like is that new textures are added by replacing patches of the existing ones. You still haven't tried to modify textures list with WinTex?

You remember our discussion in a mail last year, right? Well, I asked Camper back then and he said he couldn't figure it out or dunno what and then he never cared about it ever again, so I did the only thing *I* was capable of, i.e. replacing textures (I'd say it's still a thousand times better than not doing anything). Of course if you could do something in this direction (and I mean something that's compatible with WadAuthor ver. 1.1, not only with 2.x like what Camper suggested), it'd make mapping somewhat easier, as currently a score of existing textures are not included in scatteredevil.wad and there are also some (=dozens of) variations of current ones which to have would be cool.

But how do you define new textures? Pls a step-by-step idiot guide. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] As for the map size prob, you can install different WadAuthor versions indendently of each other in different dirs, just grab the 1.1 shareware from RavenGames (link in the Heretic maps section).

My WadAuthor version id 1.30 and it works fine. I checked WadAuthor change list and didn't found anything related to this so it should work in version 1.1 too. Just copy lumps TEXTURE1, TEXTURE2 and PNAMES from hexen.wad to scatteredevil.wad and WadAuthor will load them from here. I have another problem - part of the map is ouside editing area, i.e. I can't scroll there. And from WadAuthor changelogs I found it's because in version 1.30 the editing area is limited to 16000 units square. Too bad. [img]images/smiles/icon_sad.gif[/img]

OK, here's a step-by-step guide. - Start WinTex. - Open scatteredevil.wad. - In the menu choose Advanced -> Edit Texture. This will open a texture editor. - Select a texture in the textures list. Then in the menu choose Textures -> New Texture. A dialog box will appear asking for the name of the new texture. Enter a name and clikc Okay. This will create a new texture right before currently selected texture. Important note - first texture (ABADONE) is a dummy texture and must remain the first one. - Now select the new texture you just created. A blank texture will appear. Now choose a patch in the patches list that you want to add to the texture. It will be displayed in the texture view. Drag mouse in the texture view to place patch and click mouse to drop it in currently selected location. - The default size of new textures is 128x128. If different size is needed on the top right corner there's two slidebars for resizing the texture. - When done choose File ->Quit Texture and you will be prompted for saving textures. Everything is also described in the WinTex help files. Read them too. Now how to use them in WadAuthor (for those who don't know this). Open a map where you want to use them, in the menu choose Edit -> Properties. In the dialog box choose loading images from external wadfile and select the wad file containing textures (scatteredevil.wad for example).

Could I use a similar opperation to put a new thing in the wadauthor? I mean, adding more wads for things (the new mage and cleric)?

Damnit! I just tried WadAuthor 1.10 and it doesn't support this. So the only solution is upgrade it to version 1.30 that can be downloaded from doomworld.com page. Just be sure you don't overwrite wauthor.wcl file. As for new things - it seams only one external images file can be used so all new sprites must be here. Otherwise - no problems.

Well I checked that new wadauthor version I thought was 2.x and I found out it was 1.30, LOL... some things are different than in 1.1 and I don't really like them, but after some searching I could tweak that one option that disturbed me immensely (the drag & drop cursor, with the default version it's impossible to edit maps IMO). So I guess I'll have to use 1.30 in the future. Though I had a pretty good system for textures, I had them in a table, pics along with wadauthor and wintex names (and originating filenames), and I printed it out, so it was pretty easy to find a texture even though the wrong one was displayed in wadauthor. BTW I found a wadauthor homepage on the web and it had screenshots of an upcoming version, there was an image browser where you could see a lot of textures at once, it'd be a cool thing to have. As for textures and sprites, we should in the future put all of them into one wadfile that's managed by one single person and everyone sends new graphics to this person, the Q is only who this person should be. There are arguments for it being Mago (=creates most graphics), Janis (=could create the source code entries), me (=project leader, and as map designer the person who makes first use of new stuff), or maybe someone entirely else?

OK, You got yourself a job. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

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Well I checked that new wadauthor version I thought was 2.x and I found out it was 1.30, LOL... some things are different than in 1.1 and I don't really like them, but after some searching I could tweak that one option that disturbed me immensely (the drag & drop cursor, with the default version it's impossible to edit maps IMO). So I guess I'll have to use 1.30 in the future. Though I had a pretty good system for textures, I had them in a table, pics along with wadauthor and wintex names (and originating filenames), and I printed it out, so it was pretty easy to find a texture even though the wrong one was displayed in wadauthor.

But now the correct one will be displayed. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

As for textures and sprites, we should in the future put all of them into one wadfile that's managed by one single person and everyone sends new graphics to this person, the Q is only who this person should be. There are arguments for it being Mago (=creates most graphics), Janis (=could create the source code entries), me (=project leader, and as map designer the person who makes first use of new stuff), or maybe someone entirely else?

Another argument for me - it seams that I know the most about textures and their editing. [img]images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img] I also have a nice wad file merging utility that I'm using for Vavoom, so there can be multiple wad files with graphics and everyone having all of them and the script file can easely merge it all into that one common file. Such distribution system will also decrease time needed for downloads and uploads.

Wow, that'd be really nice... I was trying to befriend the idea of having to replace hundreds of textures manually, but this'll save a lot of time. [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] I used a complex naming system for textures so they are easily identified by name, like cityXX, citywinX, citydorX, stoneXX, stonwinX, stondorX, rockXX etc. I'll also upload the other textures later on. Is there an upper limit to the number of textures, or is it still OK if I go crazy and create another 50 variations of city textures for better looks?

I don't think there's a limit to the amount of textures that can be in a wadfile. However, DCK can only read wadfiles with under 768 textures, but that's DCK. WadAuthor probably has no limits at all, so I think you could put as many as a thousand textures and it still might work, but I doubt you'll use that many. I certainly won't.

OK, then let's begin. I would like to start managing textures list. The first problem that arises with new textures is that in existing maps they must be renamed. But I coan quickly create a little utility program that will do this. Is there something special that I must do first?

I'm not sure what you mean with "source"?

I think he means that the .dll is in its component parts (info.c, p_enemy.c, etc.), where you need Visual Basic to compile it.

If it's about the program source code, I for myself prefer a compiled exe or dll becuz I don't have any compiler tools and don't want to compile sources anyway.

Two new zip files are uploaded into koraxdev directory scatteredevil. They are: se-wad.zip - contains new scatteredevil.wad with new textures. rentex.zip - utility for ranaming textures in maps. usage is rentex <wadfile>. Now about data. How it should be uploaded? Should it be in "source" form so that everybody must run an utility to create it. Or it should be uploaded in final form. If you have some more textures to add, just upload them and I will do the work.

NO, I mean wad file in it's source form. I have all stuff split into multiple wad files and some seperate lump files. There's a wad file for textures, flats, multiple wads for srites etc. Then there's a script listing everything that needs to be linked into one big wad file. And with my utility the final wad file (i.e. scatteredevil.wad) is created.

I don't see any reason to separate graphics from each other (there might be one I'm not aware of though), same goes for sounds and other static data that's independent of each other. OTOH I still remember back from Hell's Surface that fixing a linedef prob in E2M5 screwed up the E2M2 demo... So I'd say let's have one main wadfile containing all stuff besides maps and demos (OK, demos won't be made before the very end, if at all). But for maps it'd be easier to have each one in a separate wadfile, since they're a big part of the total wadfile size and they'll change most often (most sprites/textures will never be changed after being added to the wadfile, a map will be changed all the time, maybe up to the very last day before release).

In which range do the file sizes we're talking about fall? a couple of hundred KBs or several megs?

The main reason is size that needs to be uploaded. It's way easier to upload a small files that were changed. And for others they will have to download only the changed files and rebuild the big file.

Just ran rentex, it's cool [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] BTW just a Q, the citymage's head's top is "cut off", is this an issue with the pics Mago created or with the way the engine displays it?

Another question regarding new textures, can I make 256x128 "widescreen" textures as well? Also, is this really the maximum the engine supports?

You can make 256x128. They can even be as big 512 and 1024, but it can only be as high as 128. The 512x128 and 1024x128 textures are generally used for skies. A sky texture is 256x128, and wraps around the top, repeating itself four times. With a 1024x128 sky, you can have a more realistic sky that doesn't repeat itself. However, you'd have to split them up into 4 256x128 patches. Then, when you create the actual texture, you just set all four patches next to each other until you have a 1024x128 sky texture.

Before I start making 1024x128 textures, Janis could you confirm that they'll work with both SE and WadAuthor? Wow, didn't know that about skies, but I don't think we'll use it. After SE, we're going to have a more modern skybox technology anyway (and skytextures for Doomsday won't work right on Vavoom, becuz of the way Doomsday warps the upper part of the textures into a globe-like thingie). p.s. this max height of 128 is real stupid anyway, it's more of a limit than even 64 would be horizontally. As far as I can recall Vavoom has support for higher textures, right?

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In which range do the file sizes we're talking about fall? a couple of hundred KBs or several megs?

While it's less then a meg, it's OK, but if it will grow into several megs I won't be happy in uploading them. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

BTW just a Q, the citymage's head's top is "cut off", is this an issue with the pics Mago created or with the way the engine displays it?

Most likely it's the way engine renders them. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Another question regarding new textures, can I make 256x128 "widescreen" textures as well? Also, is this really the maximum the engine supports?

There already are some. One of the window textures I created as 256X128 (Originaly there were two textures). <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Before I start making 1024x128 textures, Janis could you confirm that they'll work with both SE and WadAuthor?

Yes, they will. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

p.s. this max height of 128 is real stupid anyway, it's more of a limit than even 64 would be horizontally. As far as I can recall Vavoom has support for higher textures, right?

This is a limitation of WinTex. There's a level editor DeepSea allowing to create taller textures. 128 height limit is also because original Doom engine does vertical texture wrapping on 128 texel boundary.

Well I wouldn't be happy about a solution where I have to run utilities all the time just to use the latest textures... OTOH it's half as bad for sprites and sounds. What about having a base wad file that includes the very basic info (there is some stuff in the main wadfile of the Korax engine w/o which it won't run AFAIK), plus all the textures. And separate files for other resources like sprites and sounds, and then there'd be a tool to merge them. OTOH if the textures in themselves will be several megs, then I guess it isn't a solution neither. [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img] Suggestions? <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by RambOrc: <strong>BTW just a Q, the citymage's head's top is "cut off", is this an issue with the pics Mago created or with the way the engine displays it?</strong><hr></blockquote> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Janis Legzdinsh: <strong>Most likely it's the way engine renders them.</strong><hr></blockquote> Just checked the bitmaps, and the prob exists already on them... *BOOM* Mago, consider yourself shot. [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] Seriously, could you correct the prob? The mage's head is just too flat IMO. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

There already are some. One of the window textures I created as 256X128 (Originaly there were two textures).

Ah, that's what the "compatibility reasons" in the texture list meant! Once I get around editing the town map once again, I'll rejoin the linedefs and replace the textures with the new bigger one. Once I did that I'll drop you a note so that you can delete the unneeded textures from the wadfile. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

This is a limitation of WinTex. There's a level editor DeepSea allowing to create taller textures. 128 height limit is also because original Doom engine does vertical texture wrapping on 128 texel boundary.

I think I don't get it, the first part seems to mean that once you use something else than WinTex to add textures, there can be higher ones, but the 2nd sentence seems to incline no matter how high the texture, it won't work over 128. What's true and what's not?

What do you mean? In which frame/position? I'll correct it right away.

Haven't checked the other sequences, but it appears in pretty much every frame of the A sequence, it's just less obvious in some (like in the front one, though even there an additional pixel line would be better). Since the guy is more than high enough anyway, you might want to shrink his feet somewhat, pushing all the rest down by 2-3 pixels or so. Same goes for other NPCs as well, if their head doesn't reach up to the max height of the frame, no prob, especially with the woman who currently looks like a BIG babe (whereas only her boobs should be big, you could add a pixel or 2 of additional width to the boobs in the sideview [img]images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ). I'd say with new NPCs start the top of the head in the 4th pixel line or so from the top. Don't forget that if you test NPC look in the engine with the fighter, you have a *way* higher eye height than with the cleric and especially the mage.

What you ask seems difficult to do. You know, when you work with such small pictures, you have to simplify it a lot. The city mage is made upon the original mage's frames, so they have the same height. And I don't think I could make a decent sprite smaller than that (the mage has a 62-64 height). Of course I will put some more pixels in the oldman's head (specially the side views), but I don't think I can cut the feet. I'll try, anyway. Other difficulty is the "real" size for those characters. The ?city mage is mostly 5 heads-tall, while normal people are about 8 heads tall (which would mean 1,76 mettres, about 70.4 inchs, I think. 5 Heads would mean 1.10 mettres, about 44 inchs! VERY small proportions, smaller than a real dwarf). In order to have a detailed face, with eyes, nose and mouth, I have to respect that proportion, otherwise the bodies would be even greater (almost twice as high). I mean, I have to make a bigger head . And that's why most of "persons" in Hexen have hidden faces (=smaller heads). Just to explain why they have to be of that size. I forgot what I meant to say... Maybe later... [img]images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] Oh yes, the problem with p.o.v. is that it seems too low, even the Ettins, when you get near, are way taller than the player. I don't know... What can we do? [ March 21, 2002: Message edited by: Mago ]</p>

Abou the other game's art, I would like anything you could get me, mostly weapons sequence and enemies sequences, but effects and flats/graphics would be useful too. One question, though: use or modify game's art is illegal, isn't it? So, what could we do?

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Well I wouldn't be happy about a solution where I have to run utilities all the time just to use the latest textures... OTOH it's half as bad for sprites and sounds. What about having a base wad file that includes the very basic info (there is some stuff in the main wadfile of the Korax engine w/o which it won't run AFAIK), plus all the textures. And separate files for other resources like sprites and sounds, and then there'd be a tool to merge them. OTOH if the textures in themselves will be several megs, then I guess it isn't a solution neither. [img]images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img] Suggestions?

To give you a better idea about how it looks I decided to upload an archive with current data in source form. To create main wad file simply run make_wad.bat. <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

I think I don't get it, the first part seems to mean that once you use something else than WinTex to add textures, there can be higher ones, but the 2nd sentence seems to incline no matter how high the texture, it won't work over 128. What's true and what's not?

They will work in DoomsDay and Vavoom.