The original Korax RPG concepts originates from 1997. Some of the ideas I had back then I dare to say were quite revolutionary, and if Korax' Heritage could've been released back then on the original DOS Hexen engine, it might've been something new. Since then, however, roughly 8 years passed, and also about 5 years since the Korax project started in earnest on the Doomsday engine (Camper's code being the first Hexen engine ever with support for 3D models, more than half a year before SkyJake himself released such a jHexen version). In this time, I've seen many of the ideas I had back then (and which didn't exist in any commercial game released by that time, at least in none I knew of) implemented in one game or another. There are things many games implemented and there are a couple of things only one or two games featured. And there are a couple of games that had in large parts the same concepts as Korax' Heritage, most important among them Morrowind. Some of my most interesting ideas like the seamlessly connected and detailed world are featured by Morrowind, and in my opinion they did a better job of it than we ever could with our resources and knowledge. Add to this that Morrowind 2 is in development and it is to have an even more immersive game world... It is also a good example of a deep and detailed game with many options and many ways to a solution. While there are lots of games with similar and even larger feature sets, they are not in an FPS engine and thus don't matter that much for Korax. But while older first person RPGs like Lands of Lore III (with an engine VERY similar to the one we're using BTW) did have many shortcomings that could've been improved upon using backported technologies from later generation 3D engines (like the skybox system or light sources), by now commercial gaming went far further than we ever could. Thinking about it, I came to the realization that we need to rework the basic concept for Korax' Heritage using following guidelines: - build on the unique strengths of what we have (e.g. the fighting system is superior to that of any RPG, even to the newest FPS ones) - discard things that would take an immense amount of work to do and even so our implementation would fall far behind of what others already did (e.g. large seamlessly connected world with wide open areas, extremely complex architecture, complex storyline and lots of possibilities to do things) - simplify things that are overcomplicated in other RPGs (number of skills/attributes, inventory, shopping) - never forget that KH is to be a fantasy FPS with RPG elements implemented, NOT an RPG with an FPS engine - the list could (and should go on), feel free to add to it in your posts on this topic. So I see the basic concept of Korax' Heritage as something like this: - lots of fighting, indeed fighting monsters is the central point of gameplay, everything else revolves around it (the most important axiom) - a rather simple advancement system from level to level with very few attributes and with EXP gotten for killing - indeed I'd go as far as to say the only way to get EXP and to level up is to kill monsters. Too many RPGs out there make you sit down at a secluded spot, cast your spells a million times and level up in that skill before you do anything else - leave the original Hexen health management system the way it is - the way it should be in a steadfast action shooter, i.e. you regain health by consuming a quartz flask (and similar), NOT by retreating to a secluded spot and sleeping until at full health again - throw out the typical RPG's detailed "ressource management": things like having to eat or sleep at intervals, being able to carry only a certain amount of stuff at one time, having to find out which shop buys what and which shop pays the best price, etc. - indeed I'd say no price fluctuations, if you want to buy back an item you pay for it what you received for it - a heroic story that makes the game feel more epic and memorable, but it doesn't influence the gameplay (very good anti-example is Half-Life) - lots of little details to the game world that make it more immersive for those who are interested in this, but none of them necessary to know to be able to finish the game (i.e. there could be a library with volumes on volumes of history describing earlier periods of Kronos, fascinating info that might even have some allusions in the game in recent events - but none of it is to be necessary knowledge) - a simple item management system: you pick up things by walking over them (like ever since DOOM - no "point the cursor and click the mouse or press a button to pick it up and place it in your inventory" style; if you kill a monster and it had some items on it, they'll just hover in the air like they did in Heretic), you have a simple inventory that can be navigated with four keys (up/down, left/right) and things in it can be activated by a fifth key (you do the very same thing in a shop, when you are engaged in buying you see the shopkeeper's inventory and hit the "use item" key to buy something at once, and when you are in selling mode, you sell something to him instantly the same way), etc. - surely I missed a couple of things once again, feel free to add to it in your postings on this topic To sum it up, Korax' Heritage should be Hexen again with new maps, new story, new enemies (lots of new enemies is good), new graphics etc. - it should be the same good old "one hero killing a thousand monsters and then walking away with barely a scratch" game the original DOOM/Heretic/Hexen were, with everything else as added bonuses and (important!) integrated into the gameplay (they mustn't look out of place as if they'd have been slapped in there just for the feature list), and that's the point - they are adding spice, color and exra depth to the game for those who want to see it - but they don't change the gameplay nor are they required to play the game. OK let the discussion begin. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Hey! I like the way in which you are doing the concept of KH, it really sums up all the aspects of the game that are important for the people that plays the MOD, I like the "fight a million monsters stuff more than all", I also think that if this is going to be the central point of the game there should be a wide variety of new enemies and variations of existing enemies too, that way the game wouldn't become boring and repetitive. I think that the actual leveling system is really good, it's not complicated and it does cover the main spots that the player has to attack and defend himself from the monsters, so I think it is a good base for the RPG system we can manage to use in KH, I also don't think that the need of sleeping or eating something is needed for the game, even if it is going to be a very epic adventure because that would be difficult to do and because it would make the game feel as something very, very different from what it actually is. Details are very important for the game, I would like to make a lot of stuff for the maps, I think that small details are the things that make the game more memorable and enjoyable, the cultural side of the world of Kronos is also something that would be interesting to recreate or to make the player a part of, it would make the game immersive. If we manage to take on count all these points it will make the MOD development more inclined to what we want to create and faster (at least in a certain way).

Ooo, a rather large post there, huh boss. I'll try to comment on everything I can but my memory is poor <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> . No no, really it's terrible. I'll skip over the first large section about how it was going to be and what has changed since then as far as commercial games have gone, as theirs nothing to really comment on, bar the fact that your right. This is where I'll start quoteing you and giving my say in matters, and probably asking questions to better flesh out the design. [quote="Rambo":275arjvy]- build on the unique strengths of what we have (e.g. the fighting system is superior to that of any RPG, even to the newest FPS ones) I fully agree with you here, the Hexen fighting system is great and simple, movement and a fire button, you can't beat it. What ideas do you have for it's imprivment? Will the spell system say? And if so would it be modified to fit closer to this simplistic fighting style, rather than KMod's 7 buttons for spells? [quote="Rambo":275arjvy]- discard things that would take an immense amount of work to do and even so our implementation would fall far behind of what others already did (e.g. large seamlessly connected world with wide open areas, extremely complex architecture, complex storyline and lots of possibilities to do things) Sounds good to me, we all have a tendency to get distracted by real life so this will probably help alot. [quote="Rambo":275arjvy]- simplify things that are overcomplicated in other RPGs (number of skills/attributes, inventory, shopping) I personally think a maximum of 5 attributes or perhaps go back to the system of 3, either way modification could be done, expecially with the 5 attribute system as that was never fully tested and could have been far more balenced. Inventory and Shops - I agree keep it simple, although shops would hopefully be better than they are in KMod as thats a little tedious. I'll comment more on this on your other point on them. [quote="Rambo":275arjvy]- lots of fighting, indeed fighting monsters is the central point of gameplay, everything else revolves around it (the most important axiom) Agreed, although it probably shouldn't be ther only thing, so as to give a little more variey to gameplay. But yes lots of monsters and many types. [quote="Rambo":275arjvy]- a rather simple advancement system from level to level with very few attributes and with EXP gotten for killing. - indeed I'd go as far as to say the only way to get EXP and to level up is to kill monsters. Too many RPGs out there make you sit down at a secluded spot, cast your spells a million times and level up in that skill before you do anything else Advancment system should be kept as simple as possible, that is to say you pick your attribues to increase and thats it. No picking feats, spells or abilities. Would the originally planned quest system be scraped, or am I reading too much into your saying killing is the only way to get EXP? If so, does that also mean the NPCs and conversation system would go? [quote="Rambo":275arjvy]- leave the original Hexen health management system the way it is - the way it should be in a steadfast action shooter, i.e. you regain health by consuming a quartz flask (and similar), NOT by retreating to a secluded spot and sleeping until at full health again Yup, it keeps the pace fast and means I don't have to make inns and camping and stuff <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: --> . [quote="Rambo":275arjvy]- throw out the typical RPG's detailed "ressource management": things like having to eat or sleep at intervals, being able to carry only a certain amount of stuff at one time, having to find out which shop buys what and which shop pays the best price, etc. - indeed I'd say no price fluctuations, if you want to buy back an item you pay for it what you received for it I'll also agree here, the price differences I don't mind so much but inventory management, sleeping and eating just annoy me, and should deffinantly be scrapped from KH. [quote="Rambo":275arjvy]- a heroic story that makes the game feel more epic and memorable, but it doesn't influence the gameplay (very good anti-example is Half-Life) Could you expand upon this, as my mildly primitive mind is struggling to make out exactly what you mean. [quote="Rambo":275arjvy]- lots of little details to the game world that make it more immersive for those who are interested in this, but none of them necessary to know to be able to finish the game (i.e. there could be a library with volumes on volumes of history describing earlier periods of Kronos, fascinating info that might even have some allusions in the game in recent events - but none of it is to be necessary knowledge) I love it, and if memory serve correctly so will Mago. But yes this stuff should deffinantly be in here, it adds a depth that I feel we shouldn't miss, it also lets us manipulate someone elses IP, heh heh. [quote="Rambo":275arjvy]- a simple item management system: you pick up things by walking over them (like ever since DOOM - no "point the cursor and click the mouse or press a button to pick it up and place it in your inventory" style; if you kill a monster and it had some items on it, they'll just hover in the air like they did in Heretic), you have a simple inventory that can be navigated with four keys (up/down, left/right) and things in it can be activated by a fifth key (you do the very same thing in a shop, when you are engaged in buying you see the shopkeeper's inventory and hit the "use item" key to buy something at once, and when you are in selling mode, you sell something to him instantly the same way), etc. I like the simple item pick up idea, it's pointless having to click to open a corpses inventory expecially when theres as many as in Hexen. Not so sure about the inventory and shopping, but that could just be the way I'm visualising it. And a last question of my own, will the Journal and Spellbook be returning (finished this time hopefully)? Do you think it may also help this time to install some to-do-list software on the site, as looking through the forums can take confusing and things get missed off and it's harder to keep track of whats being done. Just an idea. Right should probably stop there as I still need to finish my homework on 'The Sampling Distribution of the Mean' bloody statistics.

First to Firebrand: 1) Yes, there should be a large variety of enemies, they don't need to be all-new, but sufficiently different, i.e. a bit different color scheme (we've got quite a couple done in this style), a bit more or less HP/speed, slightly different attack modes etc. 2) I think the attribute system should be changed, let's forget about anything existing like D&D rules and build one instead on the realities of what we want in the fight engine: we want melee attacks to become stronger, all kind of attacks and movement to become faster, these two are absolutely clear I guess. There are two others that could be implemented, one to use less mana/whatever for a spell or a magical weapon discharge, and/or another to make projectile attacks stronger. These are the basic varieties I see, there are a couple of minor ones that might be looked at, but they aren't as important as the others, and as far as creating the 2-4 basic attributes a character has, these additional things (increased range for melee weapons, larger area of effect for splash damage projectiles like the fireballs from the 4th weapon of the mage) could be influenced by one of them. Oh yes nearly forgot, there is still another thing: defense from attacks of all types (melee, projectile, magical). OK now to moosy-moose: <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> 3) What ideas for the improvement of the Hexen fighting system? I don't know, did you have something specific in mind? The only thing I can think of right now is something I wanted from the beginning: a slightly better AI. I say "slightly", because I don't want the super-killer AI of the latest technology, it would make impossible the best thing the DOOM engine has, the dozens or even more monsters at one time on the screen, you fighting them all. I think AI should be a bit smarter in things where it is very annoying right now (like when you place a couple of monsters in a test map in any kind of formation, they'll just all home in to you and stand into each other's shots, I don't mean teamwork but they should at least try to avoid at least to stand in the fireline and also to scatter a bit around the player so he has less of a chance of annihilating 25 monsters with a single fireball). 4) The spell system of KMOD wasn't exactly the best thing for KMOD, but it was simple to implement. The standard RPG system of most games with you carrying around several weapons and going to your inventory to click with the mouse on one to equip it into your hands is too much of an action-killer. I don't yet have the complete idea but what I've been thinking about already some years ago is a system where you have certain kinds of weapons always available (if you have one of that type), e.g. if you are the fighter, your #2 weapon is an axe, and you only have one axe at any given time, but either you can buy (or steal/loot/find) another one, or you can let it be enhanced by a smith, enchanted by a conjurer etc. This way your weapons would stay the same, but increase in effectiveness over the course of the game. And it would also mean that whenever you're in a fight, you've got the marvelously simple weapon system of DOOM: press a numeric key and you got that weapon in your hands. Also, "weapons" mean everything you use in that way, i.e. a melee weapon, a projectile weapon and a spell are all handled the very same way (just like in the original Hexen). Any kind of defensive magic or any kind of non-weapon effect is reached either through artifacts (once again, just like in Hexen) or through magic scrolls (like the Ambit Incant or how it was called in Hexen, just this time with many different scrolls for many different purposes). As for a Journal, I guess one is needed, but it doesn't have to take up much info, it could be nothing but a collection of maps, notes and quests. Regarding a spellbook, I'm unsure, by now after having looked at the amount of work needed, I'm rather reluctant to add ANY feature to the game that would be different from one class to another. I think different HP/speed/weapons are rather enough difference for the 3 classes. 5) Shops should be for buying and selling the same as browsing the inventory normally and activating an item in it - the program should know when you are in buying mode, in that case it shows the shopkeeper's inventory, you can "activate" any item and if you've got enough money, it's bought, i.e. transferred to your inventory. And when you're in selling mode, the program shows your inventory, and instead of activating an item, it is sold when you "activate" it. As for how to enter buying and selling mode, it could either be that you go to a shopkeeper and push the space button and you are in one mode, you go to his assistant and you are in the other mode - or that you go to the shopkeeper, press space and you are in the conversation mode and there there are always two topics which allow you to enter the buy and sell screens (or any other idea someone has and is better). 6) Sure there could be quests and story-bound elements and jump'n'run-dungeons filled with traps to the brim - but they all MUST be completely optional. I.e. there could be a bunch of dungeons you don't have to enter that have tons of puzzles, difficult jump'n'run and similar crap for those who like it, but none of it should be mandatory. Ask yourself the question: how many times did you play Heretic and how many times did you play Half-Life? I mean completely through, from the beginning to the end... yes because in Heretic you could play it again and again because while gameplay might've been repetitive, it was good gameplay and while Half-Life offered more variety at first look, much of this variety was crap nobody would want to tediously navigate through even a second time, much less so a twentieth time (which I think most of us can claim as a number for having played through Heretic and Hexen). Let's make the main game story/action line somewhat short and straightforward, but something that people barely finish and want to start again and again <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> (what was the last FPS you had this feeling with?), and add a million little nuances that you can visit/read/solve/jump/fight through, but only if you want. Let's have the game "only" twenty small to medium sized maps that can be raced through in an hour or two if you're good at the game and know where to find what, and add the other 100 maps as an option you do not HAVE TO go through every time you want to play the game. Like in the original Hexen, there are quite a couple of areas you can skip if you're impatient, this far it should be WAY more. I want KH to be much less difficult to solve at first attempt than Hexen, but at the same time it should offer much more depth for those who are interested in it. The depth should also be accessible in different unrelated parts, e.g. if you're interested in the culture and history of the world, you would have only to visit towns/villages and a couple of hermits or monasteries maybe, but it should be farely easy to find and enjoy the background info. Similarly, if you're a dungeon freak who wants to fight his way through 500 dungeons filled with the same deadly traps and jump'n'runs that take hours to complete because you fall down twenty times for every single jump before you suceed, then they should be able to have any amount of it they want (this is one point where lots of the freely modifiable maps we've got at our disposal could be used), if someone is a quest freak there might be a lot of sidequests that don't have anything to do with the main story (indeed use completely different maps), and so on. 7) No, NPCs and convo sytem don't go, I also want "cut scenes" of one kind or another. What I meant is that quests don't reward you with EXP, but with money or rare items (or small quests with even less, maybe only a handful of common items or even just a shitty "thank you, brave knight":lol:). EXP is gotten only for killing monsters and for NOTHING ELSE, that's the best way to keep even the most fucked-up thief style player focused on what the game is all about (hear me, Camper? <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->). <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> "A heroic story that makes the game feel more epic and memorable, but it doesn't influence the gameplay (very good anti-example is Half-Life)." - "Could you expand upon this, as my mildly primitive mind is struggling to make out exactly what you mean." What I mean is that there can be a damned good and fascinating story without including tedious gameplay sequences. Instead of letting you jump from one ledge to the other for twenty minutes and then crawl through an air duct and then swim through three rivers and been picked up by a helicopter, I'd rather have a 30-seconds cut scene which might consist of nothing else but what Hexen or Strife did. I mean the way Strife did it was IMO much more awesome than many of the technically more advanced solutions. And even the original DOOM/Heretic/Hexen one is quite cool IMO if not overused. A good background pic, with a well-written text and a fantastic music that makes you shudder with delight gives IMO a lot more feeling and makes it cooler than any 30-minutes active playing through what the character went through. And since these can be skipped with the press of a key, they don't prolong a quick and furious gameplay if you've enjoyed the story five times already and only want the action this time, without interruptions. 9) What do you mean with "IP"? 10) I visualize it the way it was in Heretic, you kill a sucker and it dies and now and then an artifact or some ammo drops out which will remain there for you to pick up. One thing DOOM and Heretic did very well and Hexen left out and was IMO a mistake, is to collect a large part of your gear and especially ammo from corpses you killed, besides the EXP it gives an additional impulse to hunt down and stamp out every little whining critter. I mean this IS a bloodthirsty game, there is no point in denying it. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> 11) As mentioned above, I'm yet unsure about the journal and spellbook, that's why we are discussing this as a team after all, it shouldn't all be one person's idea but the creation of a team. 12) To do software: sounds good, is there anything out there you know about? Janis is the webmaster and as long as you bring something PHP/MySQL based he'll surely say "yep, that can be set up easily". <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> If I left out anything, just put the Q again as usual.

[quote="RambOrc":3j5s4hz3]OK now to moosy-moose: <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> Don't make me come over there <!-- s:evil: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil or Very Mad" /><!-- s:evil: --> <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> . Mainly because it'd cost too much and secondly I'm really quite weak. 3) Nothing I can think of now, but if I come up with anything I'll let you know. AI improvments could hopefully be done, I'm sure one of us (me, Firebrand and Janis) can think of a way to do it. 4) Right, makes sense and sounds good, just got to work out a way to exchange that weapon for making it better. Journal can probably get away with just being maps, quests and stats. As all the old stuff that was in there will now be covered in the books found in the librarys. 5) Personally I like the entering through the conversation option, as it seems more intuitive to me, and hopefully wouldn't be much more work to do that the other alternitive. 6) Right compleatly optional, and the addition of money and/or items as a reward still makes them worthwhile. <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> With the way Vavoom works and our resources it's probably going to look far better if we take either the Doom/Heretic/Hexen method for evolving the story, or the Strife method if someones feeling up to the task of making some very nice storyboard-like images, Mago? 9) Sorry should have explained that, IP in this case means Interlectual Property. And not modifying someones Internet Protocal. 11) I'm saying perhaps scrap the spellbook as it can be done another way, but keeps the journal, but cut down from what it was before. Make it a place for quest notes. A page giving your stats, level, exp, money, time, day. Perhaps work the leveling up system into the journal rather than have a seperate page. And maybe replace the automap?? 12) I have nothing in mind, but if it'd help I'll have a look. But Janis may already know of somthing.

Did you say something, moosy-boosy-booze? <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> Actually what I was thinking about is to use the higher base resolution (640x480) to make the journal a one-page thing - basically an automap of the area you are in on a piece of parchment (the edges of which you see on the screen), with a couple of things scrawled at the edges (not much more than the stand of your attributes at that point, come to think of it - things like your level, your amount of money and maybe even your EXP could be included in the HUD. In an optimal case, we could implement the journal contents nearly completely into the HUD and the single-page automap/whatever. The remaining things could be added as pieces of parchment in your inventory, e.g. if you've got a nice colorful map of a mountain range of whatever you bought at a shop, it'd be an inventory item, and when you activate it (like any other item), you get a fullscreen view of the nice colorful map. Pressing the Enter key again would close the map and put it back into your inventory. Quests and other important notes could be carried in the same way (and they could also be many-paged, books in essence, since there it doesn't matter any more how quickly you can access it). Or maybe make a book cover or a parchment case into which you can put as many parchments you want, each being a single page, and if you access the book/parchment case/whatever, you can navigate with the arrow keys beetween the pages, throw away one at any time you don't need it any more, etc. I'm just pushing out ideas. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

Hey! I like this discussion so far! we are doing some advance here people <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> , OK here I come with some suggestions for the journal, I'll comment on the rest after I write a bit on the journal and I'm less sleepy (it's Friday finally <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> ). I think the journal should be accessed by pressing the TAB key (just like it is now), and have multiple pages (as it is actually) presenting just the basic stats page, the automap, the quest notes and maybe something else, your suggestion sounds good, but it would require you to distract by looking on the inventory and look for the map item for example while you are fighting 30 monsters at the same time, etc. it would make it difficult to access to something that is very usable (the automap) the stats updgrade screen could be entered into the journal too (i don't see the problem there), and the inventory could hold some items in the way Ramborc suggested (something quest related). The fighting system suggestions sound fine for me, I like the attributes that you suggest, is not very different from our actual attributes system and it covers almost every skill of the player classes and it wouldn't change much in how to implement it in the code (I think), as for better AI it would be a matter of seeing how the monsters actually behave and to change some stuff in their chase states to add a flag or a check for another monster in it's "attack" state if the monster is a projectile shooter monster or trap it should avoid trying to get hit most of the time, unless moosy-boosy <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> or Janis have another suggestion. As for the monsters, sure I'm the first one supporting this idea <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> , I also like a lot the weapon "upgrading" idea, it won't be difficult to code and the weapons won't change much around the classes <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> . The next thing to think would be how we will split the info on the actual journal and what we will include in it for the final. I think these changes are going very well, let's keep talking about it people! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

Yep, I think it's an important discussion, because due to the half decade "lapse"/"delay", the gaming scene changed a LOT and what was a revolutionary idea back then is more or less commonplace by now. OTOH the old school kill 'em all mass massacre gameplay became pretty much extinct, and the few games (like Serious Sam, Painkiller) who do it concentrate on mindless massacre without much finesse and at the same time still include puzzles and jump'n'runs that slow down players and reduce replayability - Painkiller is a premier example, while I find the basic gameplay with the constant mayhen really cool, the way the maps are built and the way you are forced to walk through nearly every little part of every map and kill every monster no matter where and how inaccessible because you can't advance in the map before that, it made me play it through maybe twice and some maps maybe 3-4 times, but after that I didn't feel like wanting to play it any more. OTOH in a Heretic or DOOM map, it was much more cool because I could pass up on a lot of the monsters and areas of a map if I wanted quick gameplay, and could explore every last corner if I felt in that mood. Actually, Hexen was already a step back from this freedom, I think KH should be despite the RPG flavor more a Heretic than a Hexen gameplay in terms of constant action and little thinking - and for those who want the thinking and the puzzles etc., there would be all those dungeons and side quests with extremely complicated puzzles and jump'n'run stuff. But the main line should be like playing DOOM 1 again. It seems you've misunderstood something - the automap should stay on "TAB" as it is in Hexen, I didn't want to change but. What I meant is that when you have that screen up, there might be some extra info on the same page, but not more than that fits on that page - the reason is that this way you can navigate while displaying the automap, something I always found very cool in the DOOM engine. What I meant is something very similar to the original Hexen one, while it was an automap like in DOOM, it also displayed a couple of extra items you didn't see else: the time elapsed since starting the game (it's basically the same as date/time), the armor types you had and their relative strengths, and the keys you possessed. Putting things like EXP (just a number), LVL (another number), money you have (still another number) won't make it really cluttered, especially that the key/armor thing could be modified to use much less space (and also we have a 4x higher base resolution). The other kind of map I meant, the one you have in the inventory is not the automap with its simple lines that is automatically generated, but a full-screen bitmap pre-painted, it's the kind of map you have in many RPGs, often even as printed on paper and included in the game box: it's not an exact map of every location in the game, but a good overview of the world or some parts of it. In our case there could be a world map (or continent map) and/or maps of certain geographic or political areas (e.g. the Forest Kingdom), or even a small area (e.g. Caldera City, Blackheart Dungeon). As for the stats upgrade, it looks to become so simple it doesn't need anything much, actualy a small popup window in the middle of the screen should suffice (more complex games like Morrowind have a very simple level upgrade screen too, except for the better graphics basically the same as the KMOD 1.0 upgrade screen).

Yes, you are right on what you mention about the gameplay Ramborc, I also think the same thing (even when my bigger brother thinks I'm crazy because of it <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> ), I would like to make KH feel as another expansion pack for Hexen but with much more features and new stuff that it would feel as a game on it's own, I really would like to see all this done into the engine, this discussion has gave me new hopes on what I want to code for KMod 4 and Vavoom!! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> And those new graphics this guy Rolls will be sending, I hope they can be helpful for the project too, as that's one of the areas that will need a lot of work (besides the coding), but I'm pretty sure that we will be able to implement most of this stuff into Vavoom for the end of the year.

Right Rambo, give me a little time to get some money together and I'll be on the next plane to Zurich, I don't know exactly where you live but it can't take that long <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> . You can then beat me in a KA deathmatch over your LAN. I must say I'm enjoying all this talk, we're getting some good ideas flying around, I'll comment on them later when I have a little more time, but what I mainly wish to say is I've uploaded Roll's images to KDev. [url:c3hk4xv3]http://www.downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/rolls/

Well not so much an expansion pack for Hexen but what Hexen II/Heretic II might've become (i.e. the third part of the Heretic/Hexen series) if the engine technology wouldn't have basically changed at that time. If the DOOM engine in that form would've been the state-of-the-art for another year or two, I guess Raven would've made a third title on it, making the whole Serpent Rider trilogy on the same engine and with similar looks. Looking at Hexen II, you can see some of the changes they would've implemented, but it's a false image in some ways I think. The reason you fight so few enemies and nearly always 2-3 at max at a time is because shit Quake engine that was released as a game a year before it'd have been mature enough to produce games upon. The excessive puzzlemaking might've been another thing that wouldn't have been that extreme if there would've been the possibility for more fight. There would've been less emphasis on architecture looks, also. OTOH there might've been a bit more RPGish elements and maybe more classes and weapons/spells. We now have the chance to make a sequel to the Serpent Rider duo (the H2s are no real sequels and so in a way the trilogy was never completed IMO) that would be more in line with the original atmosphere, loook & feel and gameplay. I think the best way to estimate how this sequel should be is to look at the ways in which Hexen evolved from Heretic, then see which ones were failed ideas. For example, I consider the overwhelming puzzles at some places in Hexen a failure, especially in the Seven Portals which can turn people off the game before getting too far into it, and I also consider a failure the great decrease of weapons. In DOOM, you had 7 weapons (8 if you count the fists and the chainsaw as different). In Heretic, you also had these 7/8, but through the Tome of Power, you actually got in a way twice as many, putting it in a way into higher league than most of the competition (games like Witchaven and Duke Nukem had 10 weapons, but with one function only - the game that topped it all and set the new trend was Dark Forces with 10 weapons, each having a primary and a secondary function). In Hexen, yes for the development team it was a lot of work to design 12 weapons - but because there were 3 classes, that still meant only 4 weapons throughout the whole game. Extremely too little, I'd say. There are sure a couple of things that go into this direction. There is also Strife to consider, which while not in story and in art quality (while it's a great game, its graphics are IMO close to awful), but in gameplay principles is pretty much the sequel to Heretic and Hexen (e.g. shops, enhancing your HP over time, i.e. a kind of leveling up, quests that bring you money or special weaponry, the logical step from a hub system to a completely interconnected world) - while also introducing new failed concepts. Before we fix anything in stone regarding KH, I think it'd be a good idea to start a big and long and detailed discussion on Heretic/Hexen/Strife and what evolution was good and what bad etc so whe have a better view of what exactly should we include into KH. One thing I already kind of "set in stone" at the beginning of this discussion and in this light I mention again in a slightly different way, IMO Heretic's action was the best of all three, it offered the highest replay value for its completely "l'art pur l'art" fight system, not being bound by any external sources. With this I don't mean there were no improvements upon it: for example the way how you can pile up quite a large amount of artifacts in Hexen (and to a lesser extent, in Strife) allows you much more awesome and brutal battles with even more foes of even greater power is IMO a good improvement. The thing I'd have never noticed in-game but read about in the strategy guide, that Korax theoretically controls the environment at will (i.e. the traps open when he decides they should open) also sounds like a very interesting fact, if it's indeed a kind of AI that does that in Hexen, it could be enhanced and put to use in many enemies, including even small ones (imagine a small band of criminal Ettins in a cave near to a village, one of them stands on guard at the cave entrance and if you're not clever enough to shoot him down from afar with a single shot, he'll run into the cave to alert his brothers and then come out again to activate traps in the corridor when you're about to step upon them. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> BTW Firebrand, what do you mean with KMOD 4? There is no such thing any more. There is only Korax' Heritage (KH) aka TCS aka SE aka TSP, I think it's still too early to say whether we'll make one, two, or three separate releases out of the whole stuff. For example if it turns out that coding stuff takes much less time than artwork and map building, then we might release the stuff in parts, the whole engine being in place and not wanting to wait too long just because of the lack of enough maps and artwork and introduce the stuff in steps as different releases (TCS/SE/TSP), but under other circumstances it might be different. I'd say let's start on making an actual working game engine after our guidelines ones defined, make the monsters/weapons/spells for it, and by that time it should be more clear whether we should concentrate on one release or several ones. I've the feeling there was something else I wanted to say, but right now I can't recall it so I'll post it the way it is now (it's long enough anyway).

Oh yes regarding to Rolls' sprites, can any one of you tell at a glance whether they're OK technically or if you can't then put it into the game to check it out? At a glance some of them look real cool and if they are technically OK too then I think it's time to grab another 2D artist. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

Sure, I'll work on making them into the game to test them, as you say, they look nice at a glance, what do you mean with "technically OK"? OK, I got it now, we are developing the whole KH stuff now, I think it's a good step to take, considering the amount of work needed we can divide it, keep working for now on TCS (adding the plus of the new engine we are planning) and then, when the engine has matured enough and we have more experience on how it works and how we all work with maps, sprites, etc. (that i think we are getting the idea now <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> ), we can work on something more complex talking about architecture, traps, enemies, weapons, etc. bringing the experience of development for us and gameplay for the people behind the mod to a new level, I think it will be good for us to start working on this. BTW, I'm free since yesterday now! So I can get to work on this stuff again, my exams were a pain in the back, but they are done now and with better results that those I thought, heh! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> .

I have uploaded a ZIP file containing the Ettin with a sword sprites, they look really good inside the game (maybe we will have to work a bit on the alligment to the floor, but that won't be a problem). I uploaded it to Rolls folder to avoid confusions.

OK some basic thoughts about leveling up: in KMOD, you level up quickly at first and ever slower later on, and reach several times the original values by the time leveling virtually stops because it needs too much EXP for the next level. Instead, I've been thinking about a system where - you level up pretty quick all the time, i.e. EXP required for next level is not double that of the previous one but only a very small grow (not exponential), meaning you constantly level up throughout the game, up to the very end - in KMOD, you had 10 as base value and could level up by up to 5 points/level, making you go to extremely high like 5-10x of the original value in a mere dozen levels. This time, there should be 100 as base value and you should be able to level up by the same ~5 points/level, meaning you level up much smaller, but in many more smaller steps and that gives more depth. - certain weapons/spells resp. their enhancements require you to be a certain level to use it, and since we deal with many levels, there can be a wide variety for items/spells - auto-leveling is a must, so that people who want to concentrate on the action part can just switch it on and advance without having to concern themselves with it

I am sure it will be interesting to make spells selectable , so you will have to choose and try to play game more than once.. It will be nice.. EG: Figher on 3 level can choose maybe Rage that will add him attack bonus , or he can choose some endurance boosting spell , but he can choose only one of them , this is making characters diffirent on higher level and it can be nice... I think that inventory system should be improved , but i think that putting a lot of variable weapons and armors should be a bit out of point of this mod ...( but still maybe collecting some artifact weapons , for example more gauntlets and player can use only one gauntlets at once , so he must choose from inventory which one ..) There should be slots iconed with weapon ( all 4 weapons ) and there player should put their artifacts ( so no choosing between weapons , only between their variations ) I think it can be nice..

I like your suggestion Ramborc, I also think it would be more easier and less tired to level up in advanced levels of the game.

May I ask how the leveling system will work? I mean which math algorithm it will follow to make it balanced?

Well for example if there are 3 attributes that can be used, then we could maybe gave the player 9 points on easy, 6 on normal and 3 on hard skill to distribute, in which case the auto-distribution would simply linearly increase all skills in a parallel fashion. Or did you mean something else?

No, somehing like that is what I meant, but I thought something like having 5 attributes (the names aren't the final ones, I random picked them): [list:3dqpq9bb]* Speed: Movement / attack speed. * Magic: Mana use of the weapons. * Attack: Damage rate of the weapons. * Range: Range of splash damage, projectiles maybe. * Defense: A small change in the value the armors "cover" damage. [/list:u:3dqpq9bb] Those are the basic attributes that I have tought so far, maybe the range one might just have influence on the damage of the projectiles instead of the range (which is a lot easier to code BTW). Feel free to modify (or discard) this in any way you see possible.

Just got an idea regarding the defense value, there could be a slightly differently weighted armor for all classes. There are three kinds of attacks, physical melee, physical projectile and magic. The armor value you have should be divided into 6 parts internally, in a 3-2-1 fashion for the fighter, a 1-2-3 fashion for the mage and a 2-2-2 fashion for the cleric (or different numbers, but similar principle). This would mean e.g. that having the same armor points of e.g. 50, the fighter is taking 3x less damage from a physical melee hit than a mage, but 3x more damage from a magic attack than a mage. As for the basic attributes, speed is the one it seems everyone agrees upon 100%, so that one can be taken for granted. Attack could be dealt with as defense, meaning we don't need things like strength and whatever else for fortifying the different types of attacks, increasing the value of the attack attribute would mean for the fighter a much higher increase with melee weapons and a much lower increase with magical weapons. Using such a system would us enable to allow all kind of weaponry for all three classes, but still encourage each class to use this or that, i.e. a fighter would be able to use ranged spells but would be much much less effective this way as when using phyiscal melee weapons. One thing that's an open question, does the maximum mana capacity of the character increase over time (as it is in most games) or does the mana usage decrease (as in KMOD), or both (as in a few RPG games)? Another thing I think we'll have to decide upon before the attributes can be finalized is the ammo question, how exactly will it be dealt with? Should it be similar to KA (i.e. you use three different mana types for all your weapons), or should it be different?

[quote="RambOrc":12ekephh]Just got an idea regarding the defense value, there could be a slightly differently weighted armor for all classes. There are three kinds of attacks, physical melee, physical projectile and magic. The armor value you have should be divided into 6 parts internally, in a 3-2-1 fashion for the fighter, a 1-2-3 fashion for the mage and a 2-2-2 fashion for the cleric (or different numbers, but similar principle). This would mean e.g. that having the same armor points of e.g. 50, the fighter is taking 3x less damage from a physical melee hit than a mage, but 3x more damage from a magic attack than a mage. I don't know how easy this can be, Doom doesn't make any difference between the type of attack that is doing damage to a certain thing, maybe we could implement a kind of "name tag" for the attack and add a check to see which "name tag" the attack has (melee, ranged attack, etc.). [quote="RambOrc":12ekephh]As for the basic attributes, speed is the one it seems everyone agrees upon 100%, so that one can be taken for granted. Yes, that's good <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> . [quote="RambOrc":12ekephh]Attack could be dealt with as defense, meaning we don't need things like strength and whatever else for fortifying the different types of attacks, increasing the value of the attack attribute would mean for the fighter a much higher increase with melee weapons and a much lower increase with magical weapons. Using such a system would enable us to allow all kind of weaponry for all three classes, but still encourage each class to use this or that, i.e. a fighter would be able to use ranged spells but would be much much less effective this way as when using phyiscal melee weapons. A similar principle as for defense could be used for this, I like the idea too, because of the same thing you mention here (more weapons for each class). [quote="RambOrc":12ekephh]One thing that's an open question, does the maximum mana capacity of the character increase over time (as it is in most games) or does the mana usage decrease (as in KMOD), or both (as in a few RPG games)? I prefer the mana usage to decrease (like it actually is). [quote="RambOrc":12ekephh]Another thing I think we'll have to decide upon before the attributes can be finalized is the ammo question, how exactly will it be dealt with? Should it be similar to KA (i.e. you use three different mana types for all your weapons), or should it be different? I think the easier way to make it (and the less time consuming) would be to use something similar to KA, 3 mana types for every weapon and combine mana types (blue & red or green & blue, etc.) for some weapons to make it change a bit, the sprites are already done, so it wouldn't take more time to think a new ammo kind, make sprites, implement the objects into the source, it's all done now and it can be implemented since the beginning of the development (that's my personal opinion), to add a bit more variants to the items, we could create big mana items or combined mana items too (in the same fashion I signaled here).

So, what do you think? I think that we are somewhat ready to start coding the RPG part on the engine now, unless you think there's something else that needs to be figured out somehow...

[quote="Firebrand":1xefq2ji]I don't know how easy this can be, Doom doesn't make any difference between the type of attack that is doing damage to a certain thing, maybe we could implement a kind of "name tag" for the attack and add a check to see which "name tag" the attack has (melee, ranged attack, etc.). Not sure about DOOM, but Hexen certainly has this feature, how else would it know when to freeze a dead body or give it the flame death animation?

Hexen does it by defining a type of attack, but now that you mention it, it wouldn't be too difficult to make the engine to differ from a melee attack in the same fashion.

Actually I think what we need is a two-layer attack type management, the basic type is threefold (physical melee, physical projectile, magical) and there are also secondary types like fire, frost etc which is independent of the primary attack type (you can use a burning arrow or put your sword into the fridge before usage). Actually, I think in some way each class should have a couple of primary strengths and weaknesses, in the attack the figher should get out most from the physical melee weapons, the cleric from the physical projectile weapons and the mage from magical staves and spells. They also have better protection against this kind of damage from the same armor. A couple of such things would make it possible to make the game the same for each class and still make it replayable twice at least because with every class different weapons and items get into spotlight and different foes are difficult. One thing we should decide upon is how weapon slots are assigned. Does every class have the same slots (e.g. #1 fists, #2 staff, #3 sword, #4 crossbow, #5 axe, #7 spellscroll, #8 memorized spell etc) and every class decides which of the different possibilities equip into the slot, or should there be different slots for each class (I guess the second makes more sense)? Also, do we predefine a certain type of weapon/spell for a slot or do we allow the player to assign anything to any of the 8-10 slots?

I like the thing of primary / secondary attack, it will make the fighting system more complete and we can use the same for players and monsters maybe, so we can make more differences between similar enemies, and I think it shouldn't be too difficult to code (but it might have some details here and there), about the weapons, I think it's easier to code the first option and it would be a bit limited, but the second one sounds really cool! We could try to risk and try to implement it, and if time goes short we can use the first one.

Ok so KoraxRPG development is started up again, and I'm starting (as I agreed with firebrand a while ago) on the attribute/leveling system, which really when you think about it is rather important <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> . So I guess I'll be wanting details on how everyone thinks it should be, I'll start writing stuff to do and tell you whats done when it's done and sooner or later we'll give it a test run. Discussion is now open, I guess the main things to talk about for now are how many attributes, what they are and what they do. I noticed in an eariler post Rambo said about autoleveling should be an option and I'll add this feature as it's a good idea. Now lunch.

I'd say easiest would be to go either with the standard D&D system (which is surely published in the web with full references), or that of some other popular RGP system (like the DSA in Germany, it's got more attributes/talents than D&D). I'll ask Camper to post here, he's played hundreds of RPGs in his life so he should have a pretty good idea of what everything is out there. Regarding EXP, I think you should start more or less from scratch because the KMOD/KA method is much too primitive. You should get EXP for a million things, not just for killing someone. Not to mention we might implement a system where you don't actually get EXP (which is a general resource for leveling up), instead you get points in the specific skills/attributes which you used. Quite a couple of RPGs use this system in rather different ways, spontaneous examples are Stonekeep, Morrowind, Betrayal in Antara (each doing this differently).

I think this things with EXP points or skill points or whatever they're called are handed with the skills the player will be using, so we could make a list of different skills for the Hexen classes and then discuss how many ways of getting points to increase them there are going to be, it would be less complicated and the same result would be obtained from it. EDIT: Try looking at the list I made a couple of posts above to get inspiration for it, heh! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->.

Small remark regarding Character Stats. In my forgotten mod I used these ones: - Strength. Its value define damage bonus/penalty while using melee weapon. Strength = 8 is zero-point, Strength > 8 grants extra damage, < 8 - lowers damage inflicted by weapon. ...Jump height and perhaps have some influence on max health. - Agility. Defines player's base armor class (which cannot be lowered directly - this idea comes originally from AD&D), player speed and jump height. - Precision. Bonus/penalty for ranged weapon damage. - Vitality. Defines maximum health limit. It is used to define new maxhealth value when player recieves a new level of experience. Also, perhaps, resistances to such things as poison. - Magic. Defines maximum mana values, works similar to Vitality. Also I had an idea of making skills which increase character's ability in weapons and magics (damage, casting cost etc)

Probably would be best, IMO, just to keep the stats used in Kmod.

Is there just any documentation to KoraxMod?

Do you mean a concept document or a public manual? The latter is included with KMOD, OTOH there was no concept document for KMOD. KMOD 1.0 was basically me sitting down with Camper in RL and adding some RPG stuff to the then latest jHexen code. Then after 1.0 we got the first fanmail and some ppl who expressed interest in helping out, including Remi who did the whole codebase difference between 1.1 and 2.0, and that was also a one-man "I do what I feel like" job. There were a couple of in-forum discussions for the 3.0 you might find.

I need descriptions of RPG features it includes, since we have to implement in new RPG version. I may use KMod source to become aware of them, but it will take much time.

Will do, might take some time.

Anyway, can the player stats be discussed?

Standard D&D I guess.