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Heretic skyboxes

Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:58:46

RambOrc

Firebrand, would you be willing to brush up on the Heretic skyboxes the way you did with the Hexen ones? I started playing Heretic now on Vavoom and it's very disturbing to look up and see a mountain "lying on the ceiling". <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> If you'd do this job, I'll dig up my old custom wad with the modified start screen and the custom demos and check whether they run on Vavoom alright (they were recorded on the original DOS Heretic), and then we could make a little custom wad for Vavoom Heretic which captures more of the original feeling (the start screen is the one from the original Heretic, replacing that burning book I never really liked).
Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:36:02

dj_jl

Actually this is the main problem people are complaining about Vavoom, so I'll have to create alternative sky rendering for old skies.
Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:08:25

Moose

Or provide the skyboxes for all games, personally I think a skybox looks much nicer than a skysphere
Thu, 26 Aug 2004 19:08:28

RambOrc

Just take a look at Firebrand's new skyboxes for the first hub and you'll most probably find it better than going back to the old rendering - especially if Firebrand could find the time to invest some extra time into them (I don't mind if it's taken from the time for other KH stuff!) and make every side a bit different and rework the animated ones so that wind doesn't go around and around but blows in one direction (including the ceiling). Oh yes Janis, are there any extras Vavoom skyboxes can do besides having 6 different sides and the two-layered animated technics from Hexen (used in e.g. Shadow Wood)? Since Vavoom automatically loads a custom wad for every game anyway, adding skyboxes to this wouldn't even require anything special on the user side, just to download the latest version.
Fri, 27 Aug 2004 06:24:50

dj_jl

The first problem is custom sky textures - users will want to see them instead of the skybox of sky texture of original game. Also curently they can't have scrolling second layer, but that can be easely implemented, i.e. a special layer for cluds.
Fri, 27 Aug 2004 10:31:53

RambOrc

Uh sorry I don't understand any of what you said... <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: --> 1) What I meant is not to make all-new skyboxes but to rehaul a bit the original ones, keeping the look & feel but using the new technology (check out the new ceiling Firebrand made for the skybox of Winnowing Hall, that's what I mean). 2) Hexen skyboxes do have a scrolling second layer. <!-- s:?: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_question.gif" alt=":?:" title="Question" /><!-- s:?: -->
Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:19:11

dj_jl

1) I mean that if we use new skyboxes for original games, old sky textures will be ignored, which is wrong since many maps have custom sky textures and in this case they will be ignored. It will be easy to find out if texture definition or coresponding texture patch is from custom wad file, and if not, use a skybox. But anyay those custom skies also needs to be drawn correctly. 2) Only with old skies, not with skyboxes.
Fri, 27 Aug 2004 12:01:32

RambOrc

Ah, OK. Well what about a menu setting (or a config var) to switch between the two rendering modes? As for my Heretic idea, there are no animated sky textures in the original game so Firebrand making new skyboxes would be good for the original maps - and that's what I personally care about right now, the only good custom Heretic maps I know with custom skies is the Gulag episode (which is awesome BTW, it's a shame he doesn't allow the maps to be used to build something new, it'd be a perfect episode for SE).
Fri, 27 Aug 2004 14:25:32

dj_jl

That's a good idea. Also it would be nice to have skyboxes for Doom (I, II, Plutonia, TNT) and Strife.
Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:05:28

RambOrc

LOL sure, but it doesn't have to be done by Firebrand - let him do the 3 for Heretic so I can enjoy the game <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> and release it in the next Vavoom version along with the tutorial how to make one, and within a couple of months most probably someone out there will make one for the DOOM stuff (it has a much larger fan community than Heretic/Hexen, after all). Starting someone is always the most important, there will always be those who follow in the footsteps.
Fri, 27 Aug 2004 15:06:55

Firebrand

[quote="RambOrc":p6la3yep]Firebrand, would you be willing to brush up on the Heretic skyboxes the way you did with the Hexen ones? I started playing Heretic now on Vavoom and it's very disturbing to look up and see a mountain "lying on the ceiling". <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> If you'd do this job, I'll dig up my old custom wad with the modified start screen and the custom demos and check whether they run on Vavoom alright (they were recorded on the original DOS Heretic), and then we could make a little custom wad for Vavoom Heretic which captures more of the original feeling (the start screen is the one from the original Heretic, replacing that burning book I never really liked). Sure! I have been thinking on making skyboxes for Doom and Heretic myself too and to send them to Janis, so everyone could download them and have them all! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> I have lots of time to spend on them now. I have been busy finishing the remaining skyboxes for Hexen (they are mostly done, heh!) and playing the Deathkings expansion I just got 2 days ago (almost finishing it now too <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> ), I really like those new hubs, they are amazingly huge <!-- s:shock: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif" alt=":shock:" title="Shocked" /><!-- s:shock: --> and filled with cool traps. As for my map work, I have finished the MAP06 now, I have been working on some texture allignments which are now finished, just have uploaded a new version of them, it really would be nice to have those layered skyboxes in Vavoom so we can have mountains for the skyboxes I'll be doing now. Also, I have been working on the Heretic maps I made for KA, giving them some retouchs here and there with some stuff (I have uploaded a small preview, nothing to big, some texture alligment corrections, I might add skyboxes to those too, heh!).
Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:41:45

RambOrc

Regarding the Seven Portals skybox, if you'd modify the side image by making it curve downwards in the top middle, its lines would parallel the circle on the ceiling, making it look cooler IMO. For all Korax Arena maps, I thought to use your first skybox you made back for SE. I think for the moment let's just drop the moving layer for TCS, IMO making the new skyboxes without movement is cool too. Not to mention it'll be easier to have new flashy features in SE later on. <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> Oh yes and regarding the 3 Heretic maps in KA, seeing what you did to Winnowing Hall I think you could brush all 3 up a bit to make them look even better. Also, in The Docks that very big underwater area in the back is a bit stupid IMO, what about making the water only knee-deep in that part, and put a small waterfall or a gradually deepening slope at the part where it connects through the bars to the start area's deep water (which I would leave as deep as it is now)?
Sat, 28 Aug 2004 00:30:05

Firebrand

I have had some problems to finish the Skyboxes for Heretic (specially with the D'Sparil's Dome), but they are almost done, I just have to see why they don't load correctly, it seems that the order you write them in the SKYBOXES lump is important, Janis could you help me on this? When I put the first episode's skybox as the first one in the lump it seems to work fine, but when I see the 2nd episode's skybox I just see a red box without textures. If I put the 2nd episode's skybox as first in the lump it works fine, but the first episode's one looks odd. Am I doing something wrong? Maybe I found a bug or something with it.
Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:20:30

Firebrand

I have just uploaded the skyboxes for Heretic, they still don't work well (the problem above), but if you change the order they are in the SKYBOXES lump they work just as normal (I couldn't find the reason of the problem), anyway, if you need help with anything just post it here and I will try to help you.
Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:32:41

RambOrc

Could only check out the e3 skybox, it's really nice. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> For the other two, I should change things in the wadfile, but I don't see how exactly so if you'd upload 3 different wadfiles for the 3 different episode skyboxes for the moment, it'd be cool.
Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:34:48

Firebrand

Sure! I'll try to split them into different WAD files then.
Sat, 28 Aug 2004 18:44:05

Firebrand

It's done now, another zip file is there with the lumps in different WAD files.
Sat, 28 Aug 2004 19:01:06

RambOrc

OK, now I could check out all three... e2 and e3 are quite nice, both ceilings needing IMO a little bit more work (e2: the ceiling has a visible raster like table cells, e3: the top of the 4 support beams is not looking the same, i.e. some parts are sometimes centered, sometimes on the left, sometimes on the right). E1 OTOH looks very strange, I'm not sure why. And Janis another basic problem, with skyboxes you can see only the upper half of it in any of the original Heretic maps, whereas in the original game they were fully visible. This means half the details (==> the mountains themselves) are missing. I see two solutions for this, either to enable an extra skybox mode for original game maps (or whatever) where the sides are "pulled up" or that the skybox panes themselves need to be altered (i.e. putting the full details into the upper half, including the mountains). But it's definitely going into the right direction. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
Mon, 30 Aug 2004 08:12:34

dj_jl

For skyboxes the view point is n the middle of the box. That means that mountains must begin from the middle of the texture.
Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:27:43

Firebrand

[quote="dj_jl":whmjlx6s]For skyboxes the view point is n the middle of the box. That means that mountains must begin from the middle of the texture. That's something I didn't know, I might get to fix the skyboxes with centered mountains, and add that small detail to my tutorial, heh! <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> I have uploaded a new version of Heretic's and Hexen's skyboxes, they are nice for me now! (the first ones I made weren't as good as these), give them a check and tell me if something needs to be fixed. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->
Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:44:52

RambOrc

Having to pull up the mountains on a skybox side pane applies only to "classic" DOOM engine maps. It doesn't apply to maps that take advantage of Vavoom's new features, so for TCS I guess we'll need both kind of skybox panes, whereas from SE only the new type (where the mountains start at the bottom). If you've played Heretic II, remember the entrance of the Cloud Fortress? You are standing at an abyss, and if you look around you can see the sky, the mountain peaks far away at the same level (or higher) as you - and also the top of some smaller mountains if you look downward. It's not only possible but very easy to create such scenery in Vavoom (that's why I was so hot on the skyboxes, especially after Janis made the enhancement to it I asked him to do back in 2001). <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->
Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:56:47

RambOrc

Hey I want the mountains back on the Shadow Wood skybox! LOL n/k, I can live w/o the scrolling sky, but those mountains contributed a lot to the feeling of the map.
Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:17:28

Firebrand

Yes, I can make two versions of the skyboxes for TCS (with mountains and without mountains, it's not too difficult), and for SE I don't think we would have much problems, when we get those layered skyboxes, by that time they should be working right <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> , so I think we just could make some mountain layers and place them over the real mountains/skies, layers so they would look nice and above all more real than the ones we have now <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> . Now that I think on it, skyboxes can have a lot of possibilities to explode and to take advantage of, I'm positive that if we add the layers we can make some really nice looking landscapes <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> .
Sat, 04 Sep 2004 22:49:45

Firebrand

[quote="RambOrc":22suhyri]Hey I want the mountains back on the Shadow Wood skybox! LOL n/k, I can live w/o the scrolling sky, but those mountains contributed a lot to the feeling of the map. Don't panic anymore Ramborc! <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> I have them fixed and up in the FTP (both Hexen's and Heretic's skyboxes). hskies.zip ==> Heretic's skyboxes skyboxes.zip ==> Hexen's skyboxes
Sun, 05 Sep 2004 13:04:20

RambOrc

The Heretic skies are very nice now, I'm ready to accept them in their current form. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Especially e3 is very well done. Regarding the Hexen skyboxes, how do I see the mountain ones? Also, while the sky in map01 is simply perfect, I find the ceiling of map02 a bit strange (might be just my limited understanding though). Also, with most skyboxes the lines where the panes are put together are clearly visible, I'm not sure whether it's a limitation of the technology or whether it could be solved by drawing a skybox as a +- form and cutting it up once it's finished.
Mon, 06 Sep 2004 20:03:14

Firebrand

[quote="RambOrc":3mrn262y]The Heretic skies are very nice now, I'm ready to accept them in their current form. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Especially e3 is very well done. Regarding the Hexen skyboxes, how do I see the mountain ones? Also, while the sky in map01 is simply perfect, I find the ceiling of map02 a bit strange (might be just my limited understanding though). Also, with most skyboxes the lines where the panes are put together are clearly visible, I'm not sure whether it's a limitation of the technology or whether it could be solved by drawing a skybox as a +- form and cutting it up once it's finished. I'm happy you like the heretic's skyboxes, as for the Hexen ones, they might need a bit of work to complete, and for the mountain ones you need to download the latest copy of "remade.wad" in the FTP.
Mon, 06 Sep 2004 20:43:13

RambOrc

Good, now the mountains are there the way I want 'em. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Firebrand, since you obviously succeeded in getting out the maps from the original wad and putting them into a new wad without breaking the scripts, could you do this for me for the Shadow Wood hub's maps (8-13)? Thanks. I checked out the maps a bit now and had a couple of ideas how to enhance them a bit, one of these days I might even get around doing it.
Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:16:23

Firebrand

I'm uploading them right now! <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->
Tue, 07 Sep 2004 16:25:59

Firebrand

Oh yeah! Before I forget, I'm having some advances with the Hexen skyboxes, they might be ready to upload one of these days. I finally got cuteFTP Pro for myself and I must say it works wonderfully easier than the command line stuff. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->
Tue, 07 Sep 2004 19:41:16

RambOrc

Whoa I nearly got a heart attack when I wanted to access your subdir on koraxdev and it said "not found"... I see you've renamed it only though. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Got the file, thanks. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:04:17

Firebrand

I have uploaded the new version of the Hexen skyboxes, I have some ideas for the KA skyboxes if you want to use only a kind of skybox, why not making 2 different ones (day & night)? Just to make the maps more real.
Thu, 09 Sep 2004 18:06:21

RambOrc

Hey you're welcome to make as many KA skyboxes as you only want (also ask DarkRaven whether he had something specific in mind or just asked generally). <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
Fri, 10 Sep 2004 06:33:16

dj_jl

BTW there are available a lots of skyboxes for Quake II and Half Life that can be used.
Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:48:10

RambOrc

Wow, didn't know that... any links?
Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:06:58

dj_jl

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="ftp://3darchives.in-span.net/pub/idgames2/">ftp://3darchives.in-span.net/pub/idgames2/</a><!-- m --> under quake2/graphics/environment/ and similary under half-life. Also many levels include skyboxes.
Fri, 10 Sep 2004 17:07:06

RambOrc

Firebrand, can I give this department into your care?
Sat, 11 Sep 2004 18:35:27

Firebrand

Sure! any ideas you can give me for skyboxes are welcome, of course <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> , I will try to make my best on these. EDIT: I have uploaded the skyboxes for KA they might still need a bit of work, but you can check them and tell me if they are good or not.

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