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Further Multiplayer Comments/Ideas

Wed, 26 Mar 2003 05:23:17

zeus

I firmly believe KMod needs to be ported to Vavoom. I realize this is a huge undertaking, but IMO, KMod is the cream of the crop when it comes to Hexen, and to not have it on the best engine available just isn't acceptable. Furthermore I am a mapper, currently for Q3:A, and soon to be Modeler. I am not certain if the Korax Dev Team is looking for someone who fits that billet, but if you are, I'd be more than happy to start assisting. Next on the list of priorities is the following. With the switch to Vavoom and the much better support for multiplayer, the gameplay of KMod should be tweaked a little. The new abilities of the classes should incorporate multiplayer (particularly coop) in that the new abilities/spells affect other players. For example, just say the Cleric casts the Heal spell. Let us also assume the Cleric's healing spell is capable of healing 20 points of health at the time. The game triggers the following: 1. Searches for companions in a small radius and heals the Cleric for 20 health and the companion for 10 health. 2. If the Cleric is not damaged, and he casts the Heal spell, the game searches for a companion in a small radius and heals the companion 20. Giving the abilities of the classes multiplayer capabilities would make the mod significantly better. Just my thoughts. Get back to me on the possibility of assisting the Dev Team. - Z
Wed, 26 Mar 2003 18:22:23

RambOrc

Well a couple more people like you and we're convinced about making KMOD3. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> We could very well use a modeler, so as soon as you've built something be sure to show us (my e-mail addy you can see in my profile). Regarding mapping, Doomsday supports only the old DOOM map format which is very different from what modern 3D engines use, but AFAIK Vavoom supports also BSP (talk to Janis on this to see more clearly). About spells in coop, I just asked Camper and he told me this was on one of those to-do-lists I gave him and he threw away (back in 2001/2002). <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: --> But there is no reason why it couldn't be implemented into KMOD3.
Wed, 26 Mar 2003 23:37:53

zeus

I did some thinking about the cooperative support and use of spells in multiplayer. The only spells that could/should be rewritten for multiplayer are the Heal Spell, Mana Spell and Speed Spell. Mana spell could work very similar to the mechanics that I wrote for the Heal spell, but for mana. The speed spell would just have to have a single static speed increase for the mage and all of his companions within a small radius. Next I also contemplated the ability score mechanics, and came up with the following. This is just a set of ideas that could easily be refined by the KDevTeam: Power - Power adjusts the amount of damage dealt with each physical attack. Agility - This statistic determines how quickly your character runs and also how quickly he or she attacks. Vitality - Vitality augments the amount of hit points gained each level, and increases your armor class. The higher the ability score your character has, the more hit points gains per level. Intelligence - This ability changes how much damage magical attacks deal. The higher the ability score, the more damage that is dealt. Wisdom - Wisdom determines how much each spell costs. The higher the wisdom, the less each spell costs. Each level offers 5 new points to spread across any number of ability scores. The classes in the original game all have equivalent stats of 10. A strength of 5 would mean that your character now deals half as much as he did in the original game. A strength of 20 would mean your character deals twice as much as he previously did. Stats in parenthesis are calculated possibilities for level 10 characters. Warrior Starting Stats - Strength - 8 (40) Agility - 4 (22) Vitality - 8 (40) Intelligence - 2 (2) Wisdom - 2 (2) When a warrior adds one ability adjustment point to strength or vitality he gets 2 points added to that score. When a warrior adds 2 ability adjustment points to intelligence or wisdom he gains 1 point in that ability score. Cleric Starting Stats - Strength - 6 (18) Agility - 2 (14) Vitality - 6 (18) Intelligence - 4 (22) Wisdom - 6 (24) When a Cleric adds 2 ability adjustments points to any ability score, he or she gains 3 points in that ability. Mage Starting Stats - Strength - 2 (2) Agility - 6 (34) Vitality - 4 (4) Intelligence - 8 (40) Wisdom - 6 (26) When a Mage adds one ability adjustment point to Intelligence or Agility he gains 2 points in that ability. When a mage adds 2 ability adjustment points to strength or vitality he gains 1 point in that ability. As you can see, it uses the current KMod mechanics, but takes it a step further. I had one other thought. If the author of the Doomsday engine is still working on it, why not petition him to give greater multiplayer support. e.g. better multiplayer stability, support for loading/saving multiplayer games, etc. This would alleviate most of the problem of having to rewrite the mod for the Vavoom engine, would it not? Lastly, where do I get the resources for heretic/hexen mapping? What programs do you recommend, etc.? - Zeus
Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:30:35

RambOrc

1) We'll discuss your suggestions in the devteam. 2) The thing is, current versions of Doomsday do have all that multiplayer enhancements already built-in - but the current Doomsday codebase is about as different from the old Doomsday codebase we use as ZDOOM or Vavoom. You might want to visualise our Doomsday version as Winblows 3.1 and the current Doomsday build as Winblows ME... while there are common things, the differences are even more numerous and you can't just copy+paste code snippets from one to the other. Also, new Doomsday builds from late 2002 are in my eyes worse than years-old builds, as they crash even on nVidia cards (on a system where no commercial game ever crashed this far!). 3) For mapping, use WadAuthor, the download link you'll find in the Heretic section of <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ravengames.com">http://www.ravengames.com</a><!-- w -->
Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:26:54

zeus

Other spell ideas (not sure if these have already been thought of/suggested): Light spell - (Cleric) Works similar to a torch. Would it be possible to make Jhexen have a lens flare over the Cleric's head? Would be a neat effect. Charm spell - (Mage) Aim at a monster, press the charm spell button, and that monster will follow you around and attack other monsters. Has varying percentage chance of success depending on how powerful the creature is. (Ettins 90% chance, Slaughtaurs 60%, etc. The chances of success would go up with experience levels.) Fly spell - (Mage) Too powerful? Maybe make it accessible at very late in the game. Mimics wings of wrath. Dimension Door - (Mage - Multiplayer capable) Functions the same as a Chaos Device. Illusion spell - (Mage) Creates two other images of your character that confuse monsters (making them attack thin air). For Deathmatch mode it could draw three of your character and anyone of the three could be the real character. Armor spell - (Cleric and Mage) Strengthens your armor class equal to half your level rounded up, until the character has suffered 10 points of damage per level. e.g. A 7th level caster would gain 4 points of armor until he or she has sustained 70 points of damage. Ethereal spell - (Cleric) Causes the character to become ethereal. This allows the character to walk through creatures and other players, and also makes the character unhittable and the character can't hit anything, nor can he press buttons, activate portals, etc. Causes the character to become translucent. Bosses are immune to the Ethereal spell. Invisibility - (Mage) Does exactly that. Character becomes visible as soon as he uses his weapon or attempts to cast a spell. Items can still be used as long as they cause no damage to anything. Creatures don't get awakened by an invisible character, nor will they attack the invisible character if already awake. Bosses are immune to invisibility. All spell durations would last 3 seconds per level of experience. Also, what would be great would be for multiplayer: Have all spell's area of effect for multiplayer games be the same. Then, once a companion is within that radius, have that companion's name appear on the far right of the screen, between magic points and inventory. This will let the caster know when/which characters are within range. Also, for that companion, show the spell caster's name appear on the far right, letting that companion know he or she is within the spell radius. Just some ideas. - Zeus
Fri, 28 Mar 2003 01:52:51

Ichor

Light spell - I don't know about lens flares, but the cleric could always be fullbright. Charm spell - Now, where have I seen this one before? Heheh... Fly spell - It would be too powerful. Instead, it could be a high jumping spell. Dimension door - Instead of working exactly like a Chaos Device, it could teleport to a random spot (new type of mapspot maybe?) up to a certain distance (distance limit increases with level) Illusion spell - This could work, but there is one slight problem. As soon as you or the monster fires, it's a dead giveaway, since only the real character will fire the projectile. Still, it might be good to catch someone off guard for a second or two. Armor spell - This would be good, and there might even be a retaliation type spell as well. In other words, if a monster attacks you with a melee attack, the spell would block most or all of the attack, and counter with damage (fire, ice, etc.) to the monster. Ethereal spell - It sould be like the ghosts in Heretic. Normal weapons would pass right through, while magical weapons can hit you. Passing through monsters and things are good, but I see two problems. One is noclip. You don't want to end up outside the map, especially when it wears off. And two is if you're standing on a thing at the exact moment it happens to wear off. Invisibility - Nice, but you should also become visible if you get hit with something.
Fri, 28 Mar 2003 04:33:02

zeus

Light spell - If lens flares + full bright can be implemented, then they should be, IMO. If they can't be, cleric simply always being at full bright is a good replacement. Fly spell - I don't think the fly spell would be too powerful. It would just have to be introduced around the same time that wings of wrath become available. If the two do the same thing, there shouldn't be any problems whatsoever, if they are also introduced at roughly the same time. Illusion spell - While this is on, the middle image should be shooting the projectile regardless of which of the three you actually are. Ethereal spell - Noclip shouldn't be implemented with this spell for anything except creatures. Even then, you shouldn't be able to walk through bosses, nor would you be invulnerable to bosses. You shouldn't be able to walk through walls, objects or things that normally obstruct your path. As far as rematerializing into something, it would just turn into a suicide. You wouldn't hurt whatever you materialize in, but you would die. I don't see any problems with this. Dimension Door - Nice idea. Retaliatory Spell - Nice idea. Invisibility - Nice idea. - Zeus
Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:04:49

zeus

When a spell effects multiple characters the magic point cost should be amplified 50% for each additional character within the range of the spell. For example, if a heal spell normally costs 4 magic points, if it effect two characters instead of one character, it should cost 6 magic points. If it only effects either just a caster or just a companion, it should cost it's base amount. This should be the same for all spells. Ability score limits - Warrior: Strength - 40 Maximum Agility - 30 Maximum Vitality - 40 Maximum Intelligence - 20 Maximum Wisdom - 20 Maximum Cleric: Strength - 30 Maximum Agility - 30 Maximum Vitality - 30 Maximum Intelligence - 30 Maximum Wisdom - 30 Maximum Mage: Strength - 20 Maximum Agility - 40 Maximum Vitality - 20 Maximum Intelligence - 40 Maximum Wisdom - 30 Maximum I did some calculating, and I determined that the ability point bonuses for the Cleric versus the other two classes just isn't fair for the Cleric. By 10th level he gets less points to spread across more abilities than either the Warrior or the Mage. Both the Warrior and the Mage have a total of 84 ability adjustment points (including the bonuses) by level 10. These 84 points realistically are only going to be placed on three abilities. The Cleric, on the other hand, will have 75 points to spread across five abilites. This causes the Cleric to be far weaker in all abilty scores. To balance it, I would adjust the Cleric's ability bonuses to 2 poinst for every 1 ability adjustment bonus. This would make the total number of points become 100 (higher than both the Mage and the Warrior, but not as significant because it will be spread across 5 abilities instead of 3.) With this change, the Cleric's average ability will be around 25. This applies for all 5 abilities. The Mage and the Warrior will still be around 35 points for their three abilities respectively. Multiplayer Capable Spells - Heal Mana Creation Speed Spell Dimension Door Light (Not that it effects other characters, the light spell simply illuminates the area for both the caster and the companion(s). Idea for a modification on the speed spell - Would it be possible to have the rate of attack speed up as well as lateral movement? Spell name ideas - Mana Morph (Mana Creation spell) Haste (Speed Spell) Wind Walk (Fly Spell) Illuminate (Light Spell) Phantasmal Force (Illusion) Doom (Horrible Pain) Ethereality (Ethereal Spell) The only complaint I have with the gameplay of the current version of the mod is the following: With the Cleric, you'll find yourself switching to your Mace often - not because it doesn't use mana (the Serpent Staff won't neither) but because you can deal out more damage than with any other weapons save the Wraithverge. This seems a little awkward - that a measily little metal club with no magical power would be more powerful than such a weapon as a staff that uses magical power to generate venomous balls of energy and throw them at enemies, or more powerful than fireballs generated by enormous magical power. Just my $.02. - Zeus
Sat, 29 Mar 2003 09:50:25

RambOrc

As programmers tend to say, "it's not a bug, it's a feature". <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Seriously, it was really planned that way, to diversify Cleric gameplay compared to Hexen, where you'd never use the Mace once you have the Barbecue Spell (3rd weapon, can't recall its name at the moment). Since both speed and strength increases only the Mace from all 4 weapons of the Cleric, it'll give this weapon a real edge - which is IMO a good thing for the weapon that was judged to be the worst of all 12 in original Hexen. This was something I could never live with, graphically it's the most brutal weapon of all. With this one, you're literally beating enemies to death, the Fighter's Gauntlets don't look like much and his Hammer doesn't look so good neither as the Mace. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Not to mention, our purpose was to shift balance, and so for both the Cleric and the Mage weapon #1 is now way stronger and weapon #4 way less important in comparison. Both were "fire and forget" weapons which kill the "instant action" gameplay. Also, with the Cleric, it's not a game inbalance as he doesn't get a powerful #1 weapon at the beginning (indeed at start it's way weaker than in original), it gets more and more powerful over time - and you also have the choice all the time whether to reduce your mana consumption for your ranged weapons or to strengthen your melee weapon. Last time I played the Cleric in KMOD2, I barely ever used the Wraithverge but was beating up critters all the time - but the opposite is possible too, if you put all your points into Efficiency, you can have a nearly zero mana-consumption mid-game.
Sat, 29 Mar 2003 14:38:27

zeus

I think your post was a very good rebuttle for what I said. I can see, now, why you made the mace more powerful. Ramborc: What are your thoughts on the new spells I had suggested? Thoughts on the ability score system that I devised? (Hopefully I've explained it thoroughly enough). Lastly, I don't know the limits the devteam has with creating a mod, but I had thought of an idea that might make KMod3 really impressive. If you've ever played Q3:A and heard someone pick up any of the power ups: Regeneration, Invisibility, Haste, Quad Damage, you'll know what I'm talking about. When you pick up one of those 4 power ups an demonic sounding creature tells you what you've picked up. It sounds awesome. I have a sound studio that allows me to recreate this effect (not identically, but similar). I thought it might be a very cool idea, that when a character casts a spell, you would hear a demonic voice say the name of the spell. Just to see how good I could make the sound, I have already made them for 2 new spell names that I had suggested earlier up: Wind Walk and Doom. If you want to hear them, let me know, I'll email them to you or get them to you some how.
Sat, 29 Mar 2003 15:08:48

RambOrc

New spell ideas are always welcome, but we're currently not working on spells for SE so they're put aside for the moment. Regarding the other half (attributes), I can't say anything publicly until the team made a decision (we're discussing it at the moment). LOL what do you think where the name of "Korax Arena" (work title of our officially not yet announced multiplayer mod) is coming from? Yep, just mail me the sounds, for Korax Arena something of the kind is desired w/o a question, and if you are interested in voice acting of any kind, then we're interested in you for Scattered Evil. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->
Sat, 29 Mar 2003 17:18:18

mago

First of all, Zeus, thanks a bunch for all the effort here. I don't remember to see such a creative mind with this number of well thought and detailed ideas in quite some time! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> I must say your ideas are very welcome and I'm sure we'll have them in high account when we make the final decisions over SE. The only (and main) problem about it is that, as you may have known, we are now a bit late in our shcedule, and so all new features and extras are being left a little at the botton of our list of to do things, untill we finish the crucial parts of the mod. That doesn't mean, of course, that your ideas will be ignored. On the contrary - since only the best ideas will surely be implemented, yours have a good chance of beign one of them! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Anyway, just to say we apreciate your concren with the general project here. Oh yeah, I hope you really become a modeller, we will surely need you for our next project, and I'm anxious to work on some skins too! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> As fot the mapping- well I've also tried my way into mapping for Hexen... Making the maps isn't THAT hard, as the engine is simple and the WadAuthor is easy to use. The main problem is to add the scripts (which I couldn't learn anywhere-no tutorial for beginners at all!) and so make the map have the story you want them to have. Anyway, it would be great if you could try too, as we don't have many mappers for the moment. Good luck, and keep sending those ideas, pal! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:08:25

zeus

Mago: I'm just glad you like my ideas <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> I do have a question on the ability scores however. As far as strength, speed and efficiency go: Does strength affect weapons like the Serpent Staff, Firestorm, Ice shards, etc.? I believe I recall reading some where that it only effects weapons such as the gauntlets, the mace, vorpal sword and the hammer at point blank range. Does speed make the rate of fire faster for magical weapons such as Serpent staff, Firestorm, Ice shards, etc.? Or is it only for the non-magical attacks such as the ones listed above? Efficiency, does it affect strictly mana? What about Magic, Faith and Rage? I had written earlier about the new mechanics: Strength - Strength adjusts the amount of damage dealt with each physical attack. Agility - This statistic determines how quickly your character runs and also how quickly he or she attacks. Vitality - Vitality augments the amount of hit points gained each level, and increases your armor class. The higher the ability score your character has, the more hit points gains per level. Intelligence - This ability changes how much damage magical attacks deal. The higher the ability score, the more damage that is dealt. Wisdom - Wisdom determines how much each spell costs. The higher the wisdom, the less each spell costs. To answer my own questions above about these new mechanics, I had intended the following: Strength affects strictly physical attacks such as the gauntlets, the vorpal blade, the hammer at close range, Quietus at close range, and the Mace. Agility determines how fast ALL weapons fire. The higher the agility, the faster every weapon, physical or magical, attacks. It also determines how fast the character runs. Vitality - same as above. Intelligence determines how much damage all magical attacks deal. e.g. Serpent Staff, Firestorm, Mage's Wand, Ice Shards, Mage's 3rd weapon, and the Hammer when thrown. Wisdom lowers the cost of weapons (making them use less mana, similar to efficiency) AND make spells cost less to use. With this in mind, we could make spells that currently cost very little, such as heal, cost much more earlier on to make the use of them a very valuable commodity. Later on these spells would cost less, and would become more powerful as the ability scores go up, keeping their usefulness alive late in the game. Two things that need to be revamped - the Shoppe's Music (hehe), and the Character Record Sheet. Maybe we could get one of our highly talented artists to draw us up a neat Character Record sheet with things like gems around the borders, etc. Give it more of a feel like you're looking at a medieval scroll instead of an ascii-generated chart. Further more, give the Character Record Sheet more statistics - Show pictures of all your gained weapons in the weapons area, show your Maximum HP with a picture of a Heart behind it, show your base AC (including adjustments by agility) with a shield behind it. Show your Maximum Magic/Faith/Rage. Offer a spell book area where you can look at all your spells, information on those spells, and what keys they are bound to. Your current inventory, your current mana, or anything else that might fall under this. This brings me to my next idea. With adding so many new spells to the list, we could make a new area for the Mage only: Each time you level up you get to choose a spell from the list of eligible spells. Being eligible determines what level you are. Eligibility could also be augmented by your intelligence, if you have an exceptionally high intelligence for your level, you may be able to get more powerful spells earlier on - this would definitely require testing. So when you create a character that is a Mage, you would automatically be given 3 spells to choose from for your first spell, before you even get into the game. At level three, two more spells would become available to choose from and put them in your spell book. At level 5, two more spells, etc. The Cleric would not work the same way. You wouldn't get spells to choose from, you would just be given them at specific levels. The following spells were changed around a bit, particularly Invulnerability aka Defensive. This is because with the offered spells, the Mage should be able to fend off his foes with the spells he has available to him. Complete invulnerability seems a wee powerful for a level 1 character. So instead of being completely invulnerable, now he can either use Haste to run away quickly, Repulsion to get the hoard of ettins away from him and allow him to escape, or Charm to take away a foe and make him fight for the Mage. A list of all possible Cleric spells and possible eligibility levels. Level 1 - Illuminate Level 2 - Heal Level 3 - Armor Level 5 - Spirits Within Level 7 - Banish Level 8 - Ethereality Level 10 - Wrath of the gods A list of all possible Mage spells and possible eligibility levels - Level 1 - Haste, Replusion, Charm Level 3 - Mana Morph, Invisibility, Retaliatory (Maybe call it Corvus' Revenge?) Level 5 - Summon, Phantasmal Force Level 7 - Invulnerability (Defensive), Dimension Door Level 9 - Posses, Wind Walk Level 10 - Doom Every Level the Mage would be allowed to choose a spell from any level that he is Eligible. Maybe an Intelligence of 30 would allow Mage's to gain spells 1 level before they normally could. Also, an intelligence of 40 might allow the Mage to choose 2 spells per level instead of 1. Another $.02. You guys are getting rich! - Z PS I'm currently getting my hands on 3D Studio, which will allow me to start learning how to model. I imagine I will be starting with very simple models such as the keys, simple artifacts, etc. Once I get good enough I will probably start into the creatures or characters.
Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:29:09

Moose

Wow thats alot of writing, and it funny you should talk about the Stats Attributes page because its part of the bit I'm currently programming and some of your ideas for it are already in their, the rest we'll talk about. I'll leave your questions for Rambo seem as I'll have to look it up in the code but he should know anyways. I'll leave it there but might add some more if I feel like it later.
Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:36:04

zeus

Oh yeah, that reminds me of another thing. As far as the music in the Shoppe goes, I can take First Knight or Braveheart music, midi'ize is and send it your way if you'd like. I imagine it would sound pretty good. - Z
Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:40:12

Ichor

Strength never affected the mage because he has no melee weapons, but it would if he had one, like a long rod, staff, or wand that you can swing around. They can also have an alt-fire (Blood, Elite Force) where it can be used as a magical weapon. Efficiency should be about just mana, because wisdom affects spell costs, which could also include fighter and cleric abilities. Agility should only affect nonmagical and melee weapons simply because they are magical. If you want to increase magical weapon speed, you could use intelligence increase it. Wisdom could possibly include how fast your magic, faith, and rage regenerate, thus lessening the need for Quartz Flasks and Mystic Urns to replenish them. In fact, you should make it so that magic, faith, and rage aren't replenished like that, and create a whole new artifact(s) for just that purpose. Intelligence should include all spells, not just magical weapon damage. For instance, the higher the intelligence, the more powerful the heal spell, or the greater chance of success of the charm spell. Vitality might also include how much magic, faith, and rage increased per level, but the amount shouldn't vary quite so much as for health.
Sat, 29 Mar 2003 21:11:27

zeus

Ramborc, you'll find two songs that could be used in the Shoppe in your email. Both are midi format. - Z
Sat, 29 Mar 2003 21:29:28

zeus

I agree with your logic behind Agility, but I disagree with it as a whole. I think by making agility affect magical and non-magical weapons, it would make the Mage less lop-sided. If you made the intelligence govern speed of attack on Magical weapons, 90% of what the Mage would ever need would be found in Intelligence, which I think is a problem. All three classes should have to rely on multiple abilities to be effective. IMO, efficiency should be done away with and replaced by Wisdom which would govern weapon's mana costs and spell costs. I personally like the idea of regenerating Magic/Faith/Rage instead of picking up items to regain it. Just my opinion though. "Intelligence should include all spells, not just magical weapon damage. For instance, the higher the intelligence, the more powerful the heal spell, or the greater chance of success of the charm spell." I completely agree with this. Great idea. "Vitality might also include how much magic, faith, and rage increased per level, but the amount shouldn't vary quite so much as for health." Good idea as well. - Zeus
Sat, 29 Mar 2003 22:52:28

mago

But you forget one thing: as it is, the magics turn the player already way stronger than some parts of the game can handle. The mana creation and healing make the player hard-core killers, who can fire away without concern of their own reserves, and careless, because they can heal everytime they get harmed. Playing the mod as a cleric, I think that I NEVER used a purple flask by the middle of the game to the end, cause I always could heal myself almost instantly, with few faith costs. There's a thin balance over the magics, and I do agree their system should be deeper, but if you want to increase their power (which is great for gameplay, but not for designers hehehe), you have two options: either you make the magics wey weaker in the beginning, becoming normal only when the caster is already decently more powerful, or just make the monsters stronger as the game goes. The second options isn't very good, because there's no sense in seeing an Ettin run two times faster and hit two times harder around the final levels, than in the begining of the game.Anyway, this is a very useful topic since the magic system was meant to be simple, and based on the topics here, we will be able to correctly improve it, to your (the users) taste. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> As for the graphics: you are absolutely right. We'll consider the suggestions carefully, and I hope I have time to make all the things I planned. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->
Sun, 30 Mar 2003 00:00:28

RambOrc

Just 2 quick thoughts: 1) The whole attribute/magic system of KMOD was meant to be simple and "shallow" - this mod is about instant action with some enhancements that should make it more fun to play --- but not more complicated. KMOD is not and RPG, it's the same old fantasy shooter as Hexen, with a couple of new RPG elements. Even Scattered Evil will be "shallow" compared to hardcore RPGs, because the goal is to provide an RPG experience combined with the instant action and easy-to-use interface/rules of a classic shooter (i.e. I don't talk about shooters like Half-Life and SoF2 but such like DOOM, Heretic, Quake II or Unreal). Since we use maps already created by other people for SE, one of my basic ideas couldn't be implemented and will appear ?n TSP first: make a simple main quest line you can hack your way through without much brain work or acrobatics, and have a lot of sidequests/optional dungeons for those who want complicated puzzles and/or jump'n'run. I for myself hate both and I'm surely not the only one. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> 2) In a way, monsters do get stronger in KMOD as you progress in the game - in pre-1.0 testing, I found that starting after the 1st hub, the game started to become extremely easy and thus increasingly boring. That was when I sat down with Camper and changed the HP of all monsters that appear only later in the game (Slaughtaurs, Bishops, Reivers etc.) and boosted the HP of all bosses by an immense amount (10x and upwards). This makes it of course easily unbalanced on custom maps, though in the Deathkings mission pack itself people reported a balanced gameplay (maybe monsters appear in similar order as in the original maps).
Sun, 30 Mar 2003 05:38:39

zeus

What makes KMod so good is that it gets away from being just a plain old shooter. I have yet to see a perfect hybrid of FPS vs RPG. FPS's gone RPG never have enough RPG element. RPG's gone FPS never have enough FPS element. If you packed in as much RPG element as you absolutely could in this game, you would hit the optimal hybrid of the two because this game is so heavily based as an FPS not an RPG. If I want to play an FPS, I'll just stick to Q3:A or even Doom2 with an engine such as JDoom or Vavoom. KMod is what makes Hexen appealing. What makes KMod appealing is the RPG element. Attempting to make the RPG element shallow will make the entire game as a whole shallow. Again, these are just my opinions. - Z
Sun, 30 Mar 2003 11:25:04

RambOrc

Considering that KMOD is but a half-accidental development byproduct (which BTW saved the main project), I think it didn't turn out too bad. Most of it shortcomings originate from the fact that it was never designed from ground up, but developed freely, always moving into the direction of the least resistance. That's why in KMOD 1.x monsters have up to 10x more HP, but none of them has stronger attack - Camper didn't have the time to do the 2nd, which was a lot more work according to him. Just an example... At any rate, different people want different things - that's why Scattered Evil and The Serpent Power will greatly differ from each other. The first will have more of an accent on action, the 2nd on RPG elements. SE can be played without a mouse, including menus, journal etc. as to not to disturb the frantic game flow. TSP might very well have one of those cool mouse-based drag&drop inventories like e.g. the Betrayal... series from Sierra and the Might and Magic series. That's one of the reasons for different projects BTW: to be able to have it all (which would be impossible in one single mod). KMOD, SE, TSP, Korax Arena - no 2 will be alike. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
Sun, 30 Mar 2003 12:00:07

RambOrc

I see there is a lot in this thread I not yet answered so let's give it a shot: Strength affects only damage of melee weapons and I also don't think it'd make sense to change this. About the point distribution on the attributes, I think you're all wrong. The Mage will need to put points in things like Strength and Agility too - I don't think anyone will want to be limited to 6-8 artifact types as maximum in your inventory (Strength determines how many different kind of items you can carry at once), and a Mage that can't run away from overwhelming odds won't live long. And as for the Fighter, what's this about Intelligence and Wisdom being unimportant? You mean you will want to hack your way through the game with common axes and swords every bumpkin could wield? Don't you want to reach a certain Intelligence to be able to use a magical axe that can cut through magic shells and deals several times more damage than a standard axe? Don't you want to increase your Wisdom so that you can do more than 2-3 swings with that axe before its reserves are depleted and it needs to be recharged? <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> OK some feedback about Zeus' ability system suggestions - we'll accept it with some changes for SE. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> One last thing about the RPG/shooter mixture, I find it extremely important to have a full-blown instant action fight engine the like of which only shooters have - games like Arx Fatalis are very similar to the Korax' Heritage concept, but still lack a lot in the way battles are fought - that's one of the reasons why you never see so many monsters in those games like Hexen has. No RPG can give you the sheer joy of entering a new area and finding yourself face-to-face with two dozen howling monsters at once - and according to your preferences, you can heft that axe, wade in and call it a bloodbath or hang back, mumble some words and unleash the power of the gods and convert the place into a carnage house. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->
Sun, 30 Mar 2003 14:51:13

zeus

Hah, I had no idea that strength affected inventory. On the other hand, I never said the Mage shouldn't use agility, in fact, if you read up a little, you'll see that I tried to make it one of his two most important abilies. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> I am in agreement about Strength as well - it shouldn't affect magical attack damage. I did however try to make vitality less important in the Mage. As I don't think he needs to be able to take a beating. (Why would a mage need a better AC and more HP? Maybe he does, but it doesn't look like it to me.) I am very, very pleased that at least one or two of my suggestions will be implemented. It makes me feel like everything I worked on wasn't for nothing. I just have a few questions about the ability score system that will be implemented: 1. Will agility affect both magical and non-magical attacks? If not, what will speed up magical attacks? Nothing at all or Intelligence? If Intelligence, I don't think it is a good idea because it will make the Mage very lop-sided in that almost everything the mage would ever need would be found in his Intelligence. 2. Will wisdom impact strictly weapon mana costs (like efficiency did) or will it impact the cost of spells AND weapon mana costs? If it does impact the cost of spells will it do it by making the spells cheaper or by making the mana regeneration faster? 3. Will wisdom impact how much Magic/Faith/Rage you gain per level? I have received 3D Studio 5 so I now just need to find some tutorials, and I'll be rolling. Hopefully I can get something simple cranked out pretty quickly. - Z
Sun, 30 Mar 2003 15:08:03

mago

I'll let RambOrc answer the most technical questions. As for 3d modelling: good luck! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
Sun, 30 Mar 2003 15:19:50

RambOrc

First of all, something I forgot in the last post: the Mage will have a melee weapon in SE, like all other classes, and there his Strength will be directly useful in battles. 1. Agility affects the speed of all attacks, I mean if you weave a spell it's your hands that have to go faster, your intelligence doesn't matter much. 2. Not sure yet on how Wisdom will reduce costs, most probably by both. At any rate, distinguishing between mana for magical weapons and Magic/Faith for spells is something you might not find any more in SE, I'm not sure yet but it might come to Mana Crystals being the source of both Magic and weapon charges (the whole 4-weapon-system of Hexen will be dropped anyway, making Mana Crystals in their current form pointless). 3. That'll be determined through Intelligence rather. BTW I just posted the final description of the 5 attributes in the news on the website (it's based on your descriptions, with my changes). Regarding 3D models, even very simple forms (like cubes) are interesting for me (for multi-floor buildings in the city). The trick is rather to have proper skin alignment and exact length/width/height values, plus an exact anchor point for the model (the lack of the latter 2 was that makes it so difficult e.g. to align current roof models for the town map). So if you think you can do this, I'll like you even more. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
Sun, 30 Mar 2003 16:10:29

zeus

I have one more question that I can think of. Will Vitality or Agility be affecting AC at all? - Z
Sun, 30 Mar 2003 17:59:29

mago

Hmmm, don't know for sure, but I don't think so... You see, in Hexen, armor value differs from D&D rules (at least from how I remember them from AD&D). It isn't there to say if you get damage from an attack or not, like in D&D, but rather to absorb some of the damage the blows inflict on the character. The higher the armor value, the least you get damaged by a blow. I always thought it is strange to see that characters in rpgs with high stamina/constitution get to take less damage when hitted, like if their skin became harder. So I don't think the stats should affect the AC or it's ability to protect (also because you don't test your Agility to avoid an attack, you "really" avoid it by running, ducking or jumping). It's an fps after all, and many of the things simulated in rpgs played with dices can actually be lived in the real time action world.<!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
Sun, 30 Mar 2003 18:07:03

zeus

Very good point. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> - Z COME TO THE IRC CHANNEL! hehe
Sun, 30 Mar 2003 19:02:58

mago

Sorry felow, but I really cannot... I'm very busy with college works, and the only reason I suddenly appeared to answer in the forum is because I'm making this long research about wood composites for a big work. But as soon as I have some free time... Why not. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->
Tue, 01 Apr 2003 00:18:05

zeus

All right, I had been thinking about a few of my ideas. I came to the conclusion on the following. The bonuses/penalties written into the ability score system that I had talked about previously isn't a good idea. It's capable of skewing the gameplay too much far too early on. Going by the original rules, a Mage could have a 38 intelligence by level 4. That is just too powerful. Instead, I would say remove the idea of bonuses/penalties to specific ability scores. If you are not familiar with what I am talking about, I am talking about this part: "When a warrior adds one ability adjustment point to strength or vitality he gets 2 points added to that score. When a warrior adds 2 ability adjustment points to intelligence or wisdom he gains 1 point in that ability score." This idea should not be implemented. What I recommend instead is to do one of the following: Each experience level offer 9 ability adjustment points, of which no more than five can be used on any given ability. -or- At second level your character gets 4 ability adjustment points, at third level he gets five ability adjustment points, and fourth level he gets six, etc. Assuming the character gets four ability adjustment points at level two, by the end of level ten he would have gained a total of 85. This would be 5 less than the first option. Or you could have 2nd level start at 5 aap's, and continue up, which would offer 95 ability points. The benefit to the second method is that earlier on, the character isn't that far different from the original game. This would help to balance gameplay a good amount. I still firmly stand by the use of ability score limitations based upon class. Particularly when removing the bonuses/penalties of AAP's. On to my next topic: The Heal spell and the Defense spell currently break the game, IMO. Heal needs to cost around 8 faith to cast. Defense (or as I like to call it - Invincibility <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->) simply needs to be pushed back A LOT. I would say level 7 is about the absolute earliest this should be brought in. I would replace it with either Haste, Repulsion or Charm <-- wink, wink, nudge, nudge <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Now, this brings me to my next topic. If wisdom is going to make spells cost less, *every* spell needs to be jacked up a lot in cost. Make Heal cost around 12 at the beginning of the game. I highly recommend making spells be a _very precious_ commodity early on in the game. Make our characters feel like peons in the beginning, and make us feel like Heroes in the end. Next topic - I think it would be great if we could give the Warrior an upgrade to his gaunetlets - give him the Heretic Shock Gauntlets. Those would be absolutely awesome as an upgrade later in the game. I came up with this while brain storming about the ability score system: Offer the warrior the ability to gain ambidexterity once his Strength has become 40 and his Agility 30. Allow him to wield two weapons at the same time. Essentially doubling his attack rate. Have the left handed weapon (off-handed weapon) deal one half of what the right handed weapon does. Ok, last suggestion. DO NOT make Magic/Faith/Rage orbs that can be picked up to replenish that particular stat. I really, really like the fact that Magic/Faith/Rage isn't just another form of Mana. I like having a very different resource. It creates more variety. Keep it the way it is - regenerative. I received an email from Jaakko Keranen (Creator of JHexen) and it was in response to a question of mine - Do you plan on fixing the load/save game feature in cooperative gaming? "Netgame saving/loading should already be operational (in-game only). The only requirement is that all players that are in the savegame must connect before the savegame is loaded." - Z
Tue, 01 Apr 2003 02:20:53

zeus

Hey Moose, Give me your email. I got your MONSTER KILL for you <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> - Z
Tue, 01 Apr 2003 19:33:43

Moose

My e-mail addy is <!-- e --><a href="mailto:moose@korax-heritage.com">moose@korax-heritage.com</a><!-- e -->
Wed, 02 Apr 2003 18:21:22

RambOrc

LOL don't worry that idea was discarded from the beginning... one of the reasons I said we took your system with some changes. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Ability Points will be earned the same way as in KMOD (a fixed number/level), how many that'll be decided after the Alpha and Beta tests. I guess it'll be something about 4/6/8 (for different skills, it was 3/4/5 in KMOD). Finetuning the Heal spell will happen while playtesting. The Mage's Defense Spell of course won't be given so early as in KMOD, it'll be a fairly high-level spell. Its necessity in KMOD was because of the pre-defined maps of Hexen with those places in the design where IMO you wouldn't be able to get through without the spell with the 20 HP of the Mage (1 direct hit and he's dead). Regarding what SkyJake (Jaakko Ker?nen) said, he was talking about current Doomsday versions, not the 2.5 years old build we use (and as I said, the compatibility between these 2 is about as low as that between any 2 different DOOM source ports).
Wed, 02 Apr 2003 18:33:21

Moose

I'll get on with this soon but this weeks going to be very busy I have lots of coursework to do. <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? --> So I add the stats that are on the news page with the thingies they change or is there a later version.
Wed, 02 Apr 2003 18:37:18

RambOrc

LOL don't let us discuss development questions here in the open... anyway there'll be a new version of the SE Design Guide toward next week and it'll contain all info needed (I hope).
Wed, 02 Apr 2003 18:40:31

Moose

OK I'll wait till next week it'll give me all the time neded to finish my coursework mainly cause if it's not in by friday I get a 0.
Wed, 02 Apr 2003 19:13:34

mago

It's funny when you say that the defense magic is really necessary to the mage in kmod. Unless you are talking about the harder setting, I must say I finished both Hexen and Dark Citadel without using it more than 3 or 4 times, and I'm not even a hard-core player... I really mean it, that magic isn't that important, and I used it mostly to get into a room fulled with Serpents or centaurs and fire away without concerning for my helth, to make things faster. One way to bypass this would be to make the cost for the magics (healing and defense) way higher, so people can use them just once or twice in a row.
Wed, 02 Apr 2003 20:20:29

RambOrc

In KMOD 1.x, balance was very bad - on skill 3 in KMOD 1 with the Cleric, it was about as difficult as skill 3 in Hexen. With the Mage, as skill 1 in Hexen. With the Fighter, as skill 5 in Hexen. Now you know why skill 5 is unplayable in KMOD 1.x with the Fighter (and I mean it). If I think of that, than maybe the Defense spell isn't necessary. Funnily, exactly for the non-working multiplayer it'd have been an important balance factor (Mage would have zero chance w/o it in deathmatch). To give some peope around here credit, during KMOD 2.0 beta testing both Ichor and Tzar Sectus were strongly lobbying for a rearrangement of the Mage's spells, pushing Defense back on the ladder to level 7 or 9 or so, and putting Repulsion or Haste or similar to its place as start spell. I'm just afraid that it'll make an unbalanced ( = too favorable) game an unplayable ( = too difficult) game for the Mage. Also don't forget that the Mage can neither pick up nor use the Icon of the Defender in KMOD, meaning if Mago as a hardcore Hexen player used it 3-4 times on I guess skill 3 or 4 throughout the game, then the game might become unplayable on skill 5 for even hardcore gamers - and average gamers might not be able to finish it on even skill 3. Don't misunderstand me, I don't say the way it is is perfect and set in stone, I just go after the proverb "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". Better an extra feature you don't need (nobody said you have to use the Defense spell in the game until you get level 9 or whichever level you want) than a missing thing you can't finish the game without. Especially for solo single play, I don't see a prob with one character class being easier to play than others - and IMO exactly inexperienced players are most likely to pick the Mage as the only class with a ranged weapon from the beginning.
Thu, 03 Apr 2003 00:07:47

zeus

I believe that for the less-skilled players, we have the skill levels to choose from when you choose a character. My main complaints are the following: If we allow the Mage to have Invulnerability from the start, it simply makes the game easier. This isn't necessarily a good thing. If a player needs the game to be easier, he should step the skill level down, not pick a different class. It shouldn't be easy in the beginning levels of the game. The character should feel like he's pretty wimpy - because that's what he is - level 1. If Invulnerability was pushed back to around Level 7, and Repulse brought down to Level 1, it shouldn't be a problem, even for newbier players. Repulse is a very powerful effect when used properly. No, it's not a super-spell like Invulnerability, but it is powerful none the less. If a Mage stays on his toes, given his ranged weapons, he should have no problems when it comes to staying alive. If he gets cornered, bust out Repulse a couple times and clear the way to an open area where he can take on multiple creatures. Make repulse not as costly as Heal. I had originally suggested Heal cost 8 in the new version, 12 when considering that wisdom adjustments will lower this cost later on in the game. With Repulse, make it cost around 6 for the new version and 9 when counting in Wisdom adjustments. Tap the Repulse button 3 times and it will get you out of any sticky situation you would be in. Repulse in successive use turns itself into Invulnerability, but not *unfair* Invulnerability. Keep in mind, a Mage can kill a creature from any distance, Most creatures cannot. This makes Repulse very powerful. If you give give me a beta of KMod 3 with Repulse on level 1 that costs 9 mana to start, I will show you how devastating it can be. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> - Z
Thu, 03 Apr 2003 06:54:16

dj_jl

[quote="zeus":q7gxcqn3]PS I'm currently getting my hands on 3D Studio, which will allow me to start learning how to model. I imagine I will be starting with very simple models such as the keys, simple artifacts, etc. Once I get good enough I will probably start into the creatures or characters. Artists here at Game Studio will say that 3D Studio is a total crap. We are using Maya for all of the modelling tasks and they all find it great. Now I'm also familiar with Maya and it's really a great programm.
Thu, 03 Apr 2003 16:55:48

RambOrc

Repulse is not a n00b tool, it requires quite some skills to use efficiently - and in small rooms, not even a pro can get much use out of it. At any rate, it seems KMOD and SE is completely mixed up in this thread so I try to clarify again: 1) SE. The Defense Spell will be available only in the later stages of the game. Heal will be tweaked too. Zeus' suggestions will find a place there too (like the 5-attributes system). 2) KMOD. The next release is 2.5 and it will not include any gameplay modifications any more. What it will include is a couple of bugfixes and optical enhancements (mostly the damage skins). This is not the time and place to experiment. Making a KMOD 2.5 with new gameplay balance which might break the game will mean people will just return to 2.2 - or we'll have to make a 2.6 which would be IMO a waste of time, so near to the release of SE. What a KMOD 3 will include (if there will be one, which is not sure yet), is another topic and since work on it will start at earliest months after the public release of SE, there's not much point in discussing it yet. Once again, the only reasons behind KMOD 2.5 are to fix a couple of very minor bugs from 2.2 (not worth a new release in themselves), and to add non-gameplay enhancements created for SE (like the damage skins). None of the 2.5 enhancements will change KMOD gameplay in any way. You see, I'm not a fan of M$ Winblows 9x which has new features in every new release but always breaks a couple of working ones from previous releases, so I just stand there and scratch my head and can't decide which of the 8 different Win9x releases to use. <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? --> p.s. Zeus, what you should do is sign up for the SE Alpha test team so that you can lay your hands on the first playable version within weeks. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->
Fri, 04 Apr 2003 03:53:20

zeus

Yeah, I'd love to alpha test it. Where do I sign up? - Z
Fri, 04 Apr 2003 10:14:12

RambOrc

You have. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->
Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:21:44

B0rsuk

You know, my problem is that I have too many ideas and can't code (unless you count html in :-/ ) NOTE: bold text = idea, normal - comment Feel free to implement, ignore or laugh as many/much as you wish. To the point... ====================================== Warrior's Berserk is all wrong ! It's Quad Damage, not Berserk. Berserk is mindless rage in which only thing you think about is to HURT your enemies over and over. When Warrior starts berserking, he should constantly move forward, until Berserk wears off. You still can turn around and strafe. That would be real Berserk - limited control over your character, but LOTS of fun. If you think it's too big disadventage, enable constant movement only on skill level 4 and 5. Or at least make toggleable in option menu. Pleeeasee ! Currently Warrior requires no skill ! Disgusting. Good warrior knows when to fight and when to run. Rune has excellent way of making Berserk work. With each hit, your bloodlust increases, until you start to rage. At this point, your bloodlust is slowly decreasing and you can't increase it with more hits. Warrior's rage is increased by small amount each time he hits and enemy in melee. When counter hits maximum, warrior starts berserking. Rage drops to 0, and doesn't increase by hits until Berserk wears off Cleric's Heal can be automatic, but capped. When cleric damages an enemy, 10 second countdown is started. Only one countdown at a time. When counter hits 0, cleric's god rewards him by healing 10 hitpoints. This way it wouldn't be overpowered. It is the act of figting enemies that cleric's god appretiates. No need to mess with spell cost ! Cleric would receive constant, not very fast healing if he's in action. Other players can be healed, too, if they're close. He would still have to use quartz flasks when situation is dire. Instead of giving level1 Mage overpowered Icon Of Defender spell, it can be done by executing Disc Of Repulsion every 1.5 second and halving any damage taken. PROBLEM - in pure hexen, Disc Of Repulsion works thru walls, so it would have to be taken care of. But benefits are obvious - available on first level, not as overpowered, fun, deflects projectiles and pushes monsters back. Still, some projectiles CAN hit you. Please don't give Mage cheap Mana Creation spell. Why don't simply make him regenerate mana slowly, and allowing other players to regenerate mana if they're close (and are ins same team, of course !) Some weapon ideas: Critical hits: Each melee weapon has around 10% or less chance to do critical hit. Effects vary depending on weapon. One-handed weapons: Standard dagger Damage: pretty low, but higher than Ornamental Dagger Rate of fire: high Range: low, you have to run close to your target (same as ornamental dagger) Delay before impact: very low Critical hit: 150% damage Special: 200% damage for backstab (enemy doesn't face you). Backstab can't become critical hit. Ornamental dagger. Class - Mage, or Heretic if you are willing to implement "new" heretic class. Probably not. :/ Poorly suited for combat. High rate of fire, little delay before impact, really low damage, poor range. So low that it's poor weapon for close combat. The catch - it's poisoned ! Under several seconds (around 5) poison deals lots of damage, enough to kill most weak creatures. Poison doesn't stack, so hitting one enemy twice before poison wears off is almost pointless. Strenght of poison is initially low or moderate, and gradually increases with level or perhaps some stats. Strenght and agility may increase dagger's damage output, but it's so low that makes little difference. Hit one enemy, hit another, three steps back and watch them suffer. Critical hit: 2 times more poison injected. NOTE: with daggers, you can quickly run close, stab and run away because rate of fire is high and delay before impact low. It can be significant in multiplayer Long Sword Moderate damage Moderate damage before impact fair range moderate rate of fire Critical hit: 150% damage More than 1 target can be hit with one swing, similar to Quietus (axe would work very similar to sword, but damage is higher, rate of fire slighty lower, and only one target can be hit at a time) Battle Hammer high damage low rate of fire moderate range high delay before impact special: significant knockback critical hit: 120% damage, victim is stunned for 1 second (slows down) Two-Handed sword Long range Very high damage very high delay before impact More than 1 target can be hit Character slows down after pressing Fire key Critical: instant decapitation of lesser enemies ? (two handed axe or hammer would have similar stats, but can hit only one target at a time. Hammer would have 2sec stun) Ranged weapons Bow Moderate damage moderate rate of fire low spread fast projectile speed (When you press fire key, you slow down 50% and after 0.5 second you can release key to release arrow. this should be playable.) Crossbow Very high damage very low rate of fire faster projectile speed than bow, a bit slower than saphire staff no spread ! (when you press fire key, you slow by 50% for 0.25 second and fire. After that 0.25 you are no longer slowed ! THe catch - you have to reload... pressing the key second time starts reloading. It takes 2 seconds, during that time you can't move (only look around), shoot etc.) Hit and run. You can ( and should) shoot, then run around the corner and reload in safety. You have to reload sooner or later. This can be sniper rifle of Hexen, but drawbacks I suggest would make it playable even in multiplayer ! Still, it's not hitscan weapon. Shuriken This is iron, spiked star used for throwing. Projectile speed fast, but slower than bow Moderate damage, moderate rate of fire, but you have to swing before projectile starts flying (same as Hammer Of Retribution). Stuns on critical hits. Limited range - trajectory, gravity etc. Flask of oil Low rate of fire, because you have to ignite it first moderate limited range, trajectory, gravity etc. swing delay similar to shurikens Explosion with splash damage (area effect) - like Cleric's Firestorm, not instant. Class idea: Heretic Mixture of demonic mage and some weapons, scaled down Heresiarch's skin with extra animation would do Weapons: Ornamental Dagger (perhaps critical hit = terror spell ?), Flask Of Oil, ....? No more ideas yet Spells: Weakness (slows one creature down) Summoning (take away from Mage) Poison Breath (have you ever tried using Disc Of Repulsion on cleric's gas cloud/flechette ? It's fun, and that's how this spell is going to work like. Translucent poison cloud flies forward and gradually slows down, stopping for few seconds. Area of effect larger than cleric's, but duration shorter. Vampiric Touch for 5 seconds, gradually drains enemy's health and gives 50% of it to Heretic. Short range spell Terror - nearest monsters start running away for few seconds (they move 2 times faster, as on skill level5 or -fast, but in opposite direction) Pain Mirror Tricky spell. When cast, just sits there for unlimited duration and does nothing, except waiting for opportunity to act. When a projectile hits you, Pain Mirror shield is enabled for few seconds before it wears off. As long as Pain MIrror shield is on, for any projectile hitting you Pain Mirror creates another one and shoots it in opposite direction. It should allow bouncing even short burst of projectiles like Afrit's or Dark Bishop's. Pain Mirror duration slowly increases with stats and/or level, same goes for projectile power. Initially, Pain Mirror is activated for 2 seconds (when something hits you) and shoots back at 70% power of attacker. Later, it can be developed to say... hmm... up to 500% ? Perhaps it should be impossible to cast while using Icon Of Defender. ONLY way of mana regeneration for Heretic class: when Heretic kills a creature, heretic (or any friendly player after 5 seconds to prevent stealing, warrior gains health, mage - mana) can pick up it's soul floating over body. Hexen2 necromancer, anyone ? I will write more, if you're interested.

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