What this thread is about: If you were to make a perfect game, what would you take from Heretic and what from Hexen ? What new elements would you introduce and why ? ==================== I spend a lot of time thinking about computer games. Recently I started playing Heretic, and while yes, the game is mostly a reskinned DooM - it's in many ways more enjoyable than Hexen. Enemies Ettin (Hexen) Looks and sounds: +++++ Gameplay: + Gameplay wise, ettin is a trainwreck. It's terrible. It's as bad as Demon from Doom, but weaker and much slower. Demons already have their issues and are one of least threatening monsters. They even miss a lot. Making them slower is not going to fix anything ! Usually when an ettin damages me it's because it sneaked from behind. Verdict: Major change or removal. One fix could be a mini-charge (like maulotaur, but much shorter). An ettin can't even hit you twice in a row, because first hit pushes you out of its range. Golem (Heretic) Looks and Sounds: ++++ Gameplay: ++++ Solid monster. Faster and more fragile than Ettin makes it a good replacement. Verdict: I'd probably use Ettin appearance with Golem stats. But I prefer Nitrogolem instead. Nitrogolem (Heretic) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: +++++ I really like them. Their ranged attack is rare and slow enough to not be a major pain in the ass. They remain mostly melee. But they punish you if you get overconfident, and make fight more dynamic. Dangerous at all ranges. Verdict: Keep ! I prefer these to Golems and Ettins except for appearance. ------------------------------------ Gargoyle (Heretic) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: +++++ I love these little buggers. They are a melee monster done right. Lost souls, demons were pathetic, these are genuinely threatening and you don't want to turn your back on them. A swarm of them can kill you quickly. They squeeze through small openings, high mobility makes them effective. I like fighting them. Verdict: Keep ! Fire Gargoyle (Heretic) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: +++ A solid monster. They're effective at dealing damage, mobile, just not particularly exciting. My main concern is that they can be somewhat redundant, multiple versions of the same monster are not always good. Verdict: Undecided, it can go either way. Competes with better looking and sounding Afrit, so you'd need to alter gameplay to avoid redundancy. Afrit (Hexen) Looks and sounds: +++++ Gameplay: +++ They're nice, but fighting them feels quite random. Their sounds are very noisy and tire after a while. They appear much more threatening than they are. Verdict: Keep and improve. My idea is a powerful, short-ranged flame breathing attack. -------------------------------- Undead Warrior (Heretic) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: ++++ A solid all around monster. I like their shooting pattern (2 axes one after other). Verdict: Can be kept, but competes with Chaos Serpent. Chaos Serpent (Hexen) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: +++ I rate them lower than Undead Warriors because they feel more random. Verdict: There's no room for both Chaos Serpent and Undead Warrior unless one is significantly changed. -------------------------- Disciple of D'Sparil (Heretic) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: +++ They're ok, but their attack is a bit uninspired. Verdict: Use Dark Bishop instead unless attack is made more interesting. Dark Bishop (Hexen) Looks and sounds: +++++ Gameplay: ++++ I like implications of their exploding death. Spiraling, homing projectiles are very nice. The only downside is unnecessarily noisy impact effects. Verdict: Keep. ------------------- Stalker (Hexen) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: ++ Very inflexible. Optimal way to fight them is boring and slow. Verdict: Abandon. Stalker Leader (Hexen) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: +++ Their ranged attack actually makes them decent as turret monsters. They attack and hide before you can retaliate. Verdict: Too limited for my taste. Because their animations are so swamp-centric (They are covered in muck even while swimming in water !) they can't be reused. --------------------------- Centaur (Hexen) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: +++ I dislike them. Fighting them is very annoying, but at least they're fast enough to catch up with you. They artificially prolong the fight. Verdict: Can be used, but a change would be welcome. Slaughaur (Hexen) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: +++ I'm not convinced at all these are more interesting. Their ranged attack starts very fast AND projectiles are hard to dodge. Often you just take a lot of damage to your face with no warning, which is bad. Verdict: See above. ------------------ Weredragon (Heretic) Looks and sounds: +++ Gameplay: ++ A boring monster. Basically a bigger imp. Verdict: Don't use unless a sprite is needed. ----------------- Sabreclaw (Heretic) Looks and sounds: ++ Gameplay: ++ Like Demons from doom, but worse looking, and use Generic Dragon Sound no. 353 you've heard in a zillion of movies. Verdict: Abandon. Nothing of value is lost. --------------- Iron Lich (Heretic) Looks and sounds: ++ Gameplay: +++ Very lazy from graphic side, basically no movement or attack animations. Their multiple attacks keep them decent, though. --------------- Maulotaur (Heretic, Hexen) Looks and sounds: +++++ Gameplay: +++++ They're just good, and their attacks are more varied than those of iron liches. Verdict: Keep ! --------------- Ophidian (Heretic) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: +++ They're ok, but not great. They suffer a bit from "Baron of Hell" syndrome - they're very durable and not very dangerous. Verdict: Undecided. Could use a more interesting attack. ------------- Shadow monster (Heretic) Look and sounds: * Gameplay: ++ I think they're too arbitrary. You have to use specific weapons to kill them. This doesn't change much. Verdict: I have another idea. Undead Warriors which are invisible from afar. In my opinion more interesting and elegant. ------- Death Wyvern (Hexen) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: +++ Good, but somewhat limited and time-consuming to set up. Verdict: Good for modding. --------------------- Heresiarch (Hexen) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: ++++ I dislike Heresiarch because it promotes cheesy tactics to deal with reflective shield. Best to hide until it wears off. But his attacks are varied and interesting. Verdict: With some changes, a very nice monster. ---------------------------- Korax (Hexen) Looks and sounds: +++ Gameplay: ++ An ugly, scripted toy. Verdict: With bad/nonexistant movement animations, there's not much modders can do with him. Best to abandon. ----------------------- Stay tuned for more. I'm going to write more about my weapon impressions, level structure, items, and so on. The posts will be more thoughtful than this.

I strongly disagree on centaurs/slaughtaurs, they are one of the most innovative enemies in a mid-90s 3D shooter, especially for cooperative multiplayer where they promote coordinated teamwork, the more of them present the more they promote it. As for gargoyles, I like their look and sounds, but in all fairness, their AI is extremely primitive.

I took all of Heretic's enemies (minus the gargoyles) plus the textures/flats and put them in my mod <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc4.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->

[quote="RambOrc":1g6drs5i]I strongly disagree on centaurs/slaughtaurs, they are one of the most innovative enemies in a mid-90s 3D shooter, especially for cooperative multiplayer where they promote coordinated teamwork, the more of them present the more they promote it. Could you elaborate on this ? I could probably write a script to fight centaurs, they're so formulaic.

while len(centaurs) >= 1:
    nonblcentaurs = [cent for cent in centaurs if not centaur.isblocking()]
    nonblcentaurs = sorted(nonblcentaurs, key=distancefromplayer)
    for nonbl in nonblcentaurs:
        while not nonbl.isblocking():
            punch(centaur)

Basically punch closest centaur, switch target if it blocks. My main issue is that they artificially force you to wait. It's like playing Whack-A-Mole. What makes centaurs special in cooperative games ? Can you go around a blocking centaur and strike him from behind ? Perhaps... but Hexen has a lot to discourage cooperative play. Being stuck at a puzzle together doesn't make it any more fun. My point: I was unable to notice anything special about coop centaurs because no one liked to play coop Hexen with me.

As for gargoyles, I like their look and sounds, but in all fairness, their AI is extremely primitive.

That may be so, but they're wonderfully effective compared to Ettins, and Demons from Doom. Ettins are additionally hampered by often byzantine architecture of Hexen. There are LOTS of "nomonster" linedefs, and places they can't reach. You can pick them apart one by one. When fighting a gargoyle swarm in the open, I not only have to aim. I have to dodge, and move consciously so as to dodge even gargoyles I currently can't see. They naturally surround player. Demons from DooM can't do that, if they're coming from a single direction the best they can hope for is a semi-circle around player. Lost souls from DOoM have pitiful movement speed outside of charge, so if they miss I know where they are and usually dodge without looking. Gargoyles move around and charge from different angles.

One monster eluded me. Wendigo/Ice Guy (Hexen) Looks and sounds: ++++ Gameplay: +++ A fairly plain monster with unusual appearance. Extremely rare in Hexen outside of Seven Portals, which is quite strange. Missiles it fires are interesting, but Wendigos can easily become frustrating - rather than fun - to fight. Wendigo fires almost instantly, without a warning, and is capable of shooting very often. It appears mostly in closed areas, making it a pain in the ass to fight. Verdict: Can be used, but a balance change would be nice. Weapon Review Hexen ------- Level 1 Sapphire Wand (Mage's 1st) An overpowered, gamebreaking weapon: - unlimited range. Going further, this encourages players to bore themselves, sniping enemies from very far away whenever they have a chance. A mage playing is boring to watch. - no mana cost - rips through multiple targets, which more than makes up for poor damage. Against big swarms, the first weapon Mage gets is actually one of most powerful. Verdict: Needs major changes. In my mod it got "Demoness Treatment": very limited range, low travel speed. Spiked Gauntlets (Fighter's 1st) A good, fun to use weapon. It's quite strong, but probably the most balanced of the three weakest. It has short range, but deals by far the most damage among the three starting weapons. Verdict: An ok weapon. Mace of Contrition (Cleric) An awful weapon. It needs barely fewer hits to kill an ettin than sapphire wand (6 versus 7), but is probably weaker even up close, because mace swings slower. It has neither wand's range nor gauntlets' power. Don't let people tell you it has rather long range - it's the same as fists. Verdict: Junk, needs major changes. Historically cleric players have been relying on overpowered flechettes to survive. Mace is absolutely last resort weapon, and for breaking pots. ----------Level 2 Timon's Axe (Fighter) A very damaging weapon, range is slightly faster than mace and gauntlets. It's the only melee weapon among level2 ones, but damage output and low mana usage make up for that. One issue is that it's not sufficiently different from Spiked Gauntlets, and there's not much reason to use them when blue mana is available. Otherwise, the axe is fine. Verdict: Ok, could use minor changes Serpent Staff (Cleric) A nice, balanced weapon. Inaccurate at long range, and short range drain is an useless gimmick and damage is actually lower. But it deals good damage at medium ranges, and if you aim well is the most mana efficient ! 6 missiles for 3 mana commonly kills an ettin. Axe needs 4 at best. Verdict: Nice looking, interesting weapon. No changes needed. Frost Shards (Mage) This weapon is terrible. If it wasn't for Sapphire Wand, mage would be frustrating to play. If you aim carefully, it usually takes 3 shots to kill an ettin. That's 9 mana !!! You can be more efficient if you use it in melee range - then it deals 90 damage flat. But it requires good timing, is not that fast, has short range, and it's basically poor man's axe for more mana. Verdict: Looks pretty cool, but needs changes. -------------------------- Hammer of Retribution (Fighter) A strong, efficient weapon. Delay before shooting takes a bit getting used to, but doesn't affect experienced players. On the minus side, the weapon is basically a reskinned rocket launcher - if not as strong. It's effective, but slightly boring. Verdict: Ok, but could use some changes to be made more interesting. Firestorm (Cleric) Perhaps a little overpowered. The range is limited, yes, but Hexen doesn't have enough open spaces for this to matter. It can hit very fast moving targets, deals more damage and explosion is bigger. It costs 1 more mana than the hammer, but is worth it. Verdict: Good, nice looking, but might need slight toning down (such as rate of fire) Arc of Death (Mage) Visually very good. Interesting. Strong, but expensive and unreliable. For 5 mana it may fail to kill an ettin. On the flipside, it's the only level3 weapon capable of killing a chaos serpent, dark bishop, or slaughtaur in one shot. Best to save for big targets. Verdict: A bit strange, but balanced. Stands out, it's the only non-explosive level3 weapon. -------------Level 4 Bloodscourge (Mage) Probably ok. Very strong, but situational. Thrives in open spaces. Unfortunately, quite whimsical, it may fail to kill more than one target. Verdict: Probably ok. The problem seems to be more with Hexen level design and lack of open spaces than anything else. At least it has a quite clear niche (open spaces) Wraithverge (Cleric) Called the most powerful weapon by many players, and with a reason. It is very powerful, and easiest to use. Probably *too* easy - it's fire&forget stuff. I don't buy the idea that Cleric somehow deserves it because he has shittiest starting weapon. Two wrongs don't make a right. Verdict: Mostly ok, but I would change it. The change I have in mind would be reducing the range to basically 0, so cleric has to run into monsters and put himself at risk to use it effectively. Quietus (Fighter) A surprisingly weak weapon for level 4, even considering lowest mana cost. It's hard to fire the thing and kill more than one ettin. Looks nice but that's it. Players tend to ignore this weapon and rely on the hammer heavily. Verdict: Like Frost Shards, it's solution looking for a problem. Needs changes ! ======Heretic Weapons Staff (1) A weak, boring looking weapon. Verdict: Abandon. Gauntlets of the Necromancer (1) Now this is something interesting. It may just be a chainsaw replacement, but no one can walk past this weapon without a comment. With Tome of Power, it truly distinguishes itself from chainsaw and is a joy to use. Verdict: Keep. Good looking and fun weapon Elven Wand (2) A faster firing pistol, actually effective against monsters which is perhaps due to Heretic's overall less durable enemies. Still, nothing to write home about. Verdict: Abandon Ethereal Crossbow (3) A crossbow without a string ? A fast-firing crossbow ? A crossbow as a short-ranged weapon ? It makes little sense, but the weapon looks decent, and is effective. Heretic may have needed a shotgun replacement - fine, but why as a crossbow ? Verdict: This is going to be personal preference, but I would keep it after significant changes, mostly rate of fire and effective range. Speaking as a modder, it's nice to have and reserve for future use. Dragon Claw (4) An effective, but very noisy and somewhat obnoxious weapon. It obscures view a lot, doesn't look particularly good. If it wasn't for tome of power, this would be just a worse-looking Chaingun. Verdict: Abandon, I'm not going to miss this weapon. Hellstaff (5) Looks good, effective. Unfortunately primary firing mode is plain and uninspired. Tome of power is nice, though. Verdict: Change and keep. Phoenix Rod (6) It may be just a shameless rocket launcher replacement - but I have a soft spot for this weapon. I'm unsure if it's actually stronger than RL from Doom - but it certaily feels like, because of Heretic's less durable enemies and slower rate of fire. Each shot makes an impression. Requires careful handling, can kill a reckless user, which keeps things interesting. I think the weapon looks good and is worth keeping in one form or another. Tome of power mode is fun too. Verdict: Keep. Who should get it and in what form is another story. Firemace (7) A weird weapon. I'm unsure why it's the number 7, and why is the ammo so rare. It's hardly stronger than most other weapons, and actually difficult to use on the run. Tome of power mode can be devastating, but is it that much stronger than other weapons with Tome of Power ? Verdict: Abandon. The weapon belongs in a freak show. It could be modded into something interesting, but it doesn't appeal to me. ============= Generally, it's easy to notice Heretic and Hexen have less durable enemies. Enemies and weapons are arranged less like a Doom's pyramid. For most part most weapons can be used to kill late game creatures. DooM required you to have strong weapons to kill especially dangerous enemies (Arch-villes...) quickly. Hexen is interesting because all of its weapons - excluding Mace of Contrition - are useful even in late game. Heretic has furious, DooM like action. Hexen is noticably slower, I think even weapon switching is slow. But also more brutal, and has more gore. Weapons in Hexen look a lot more medieval and suitable for a fantasy setting, they are also more polished. However, weapon choice in Hexen is limited, and sometimes balance is questionable.

Whole that thread seems really redundant. Its not a brainstorming thread, its not a gameplay discussion, you are just comparing two different games and evaluate its weapons and enemies without considering its original purpouse and whole game concept. You are not even bringing any new concepts or ideas. You are just making some decisions about what should be abbandoned and what should be kept based on your preferences withou taking into consideration what is good for design or for different styles of gameplay than your own. Anything that would come up from this would be probably incoherent in style and boring in gameplay. I just dont see any purpose.

[quote="NeoWorm":3orwkd1a]Its not a brainstorming thread, its not a gameplay discussion, Actually, for me it's both and then some. I would like to design my own game, I was always fascinated with computer g ames. I won't get far without skilled artists, though, and they are usually greedy pigs and unwilling to work for free. (If any skilled artists are reading this: apparently there's not enough of you, otherwise Korax Mod/Scattered Evil would be long finished). So I'm left to reusing available artwork and sounds. Hexen and Heretic are some of my favourite games and a good starting point.

you are just comparing two different games and evaluate its weapons and enemies without considering its original purpouse and whole game concept.

(emphasis mine) That's exactly what you want to do when you're about to design a new game. Topic name should be a clue for you. Good games often combine good parts of previous games in interesting ways, and add new stuff. Rarely a game is close to 100% original. To rip off a gameplay element properly requires analytical skills and good taste. Many parts are good within a context of a given game and wouldn't work elsewhere. Otherwise you may get what I'd call "solution looking for a problem", or the element could dominate the gameplay and render everything else obsolete. Examples: - Rocket launcher, Lighting Gun and Grenade Launcher to some extent are by far the most powerful weapons in Quake multiplayer. They're so effective that experienced players often don't pick other weapons up. These features overshadow other features. They're no-brainers. - Flechettes in Hexen are, arguably, of little use for Mage ("solution looking for a problem"). In unmodded Hexen, everything they can do can be done with regular weapons, especially very s trong Sapphire Wand. If you're pushed into a corner and need some extra power, it's already too late to use flechettes. If you have some breathing room, you probably don't need them because you can shoot. Disc of repulsion will create extra room much better anyway.

Anything that would come up from this would be probably incoherent in style and boring in gameplay. I just dont see any purpose.

If you take a closer look at the two big post of mine in this thread, you can notice a pattern emerging. I tend to favour elements that fit better to Hexen rather than Heretic. Ethereal Crossbow, Hellstaff, Dragon Claw unchanged would easily rip through everything Hexen can throw at you. They're classic "DooM" weapons, fitting well into a very shooty game like Heretic. Not in a game where melee is an important part of the gameplay even late (Cleric's mace still sucks though). Yes, a game has to be consistent with itself. It's hard to make a good hybrid, and a Heretic/Hexen hybrid would likely lean in one way or another. Mine is going to lean more towards Hexen when it comes to weapons, enemies, and combat. But more towards Heretic when it comes to level design, progression, and item placement. As for new ideas, a lot of new ideas can't be easily incorporated into Hexen because they're limited by layout and style of original Hexen WADs. For example levels tend to be very closed with a lot of short distance fights. A mod with truly new mechanics would need a new big WAD. That's a huge task for a single person if done manually, without help of random level generators like Oblige. =================== Summary: I'm currently working on a gameplay mod for Hexen, which introduces new elements where possible, but mostly focuses on fixes and balance changes. It's going to be my playground where I test a couple of concepts and become familiar with modding in Vavoom. I'm going to release an early version soon. It already has a working fire-breathing Afrit, which is fun, but needs some polish (attacks from outside range, could use some visual cosmetic changes). Much later, I'm going to develop a "new gameplay" mod, which takes parts of Heretic, Hexen, and uses lots of new things. To develop that innovative mod I'll need to create a new WAD as well. I'll most likely use Oblige and polish it manually. I also plan to spend time improving Oblige (especially adding prefabs).

[quote="borsuk":3t9l24d5](emphasis mine) That's exactly what you want to do when you're about to design a new game. Topic name should be a clue for you. Good games often combine good parts of previous games in interesting ways, and add new stuff. Rarely a game is close to 100% original. To rip off a gameplay element properly requires analytical skills and good taste. Many parts are good within a context of a given game and wouldn't work elsewhere. Otherwise you may get what I'd call "solution looking for a problem", or the element could dominate the gameplay and render everything else obsolete. As far as my gamedesigning experience goes I think this is not the right way to design your own game. You have to decide if you want your own game or a mod. If you start by ripping ideas from Heretic and Hexen you will forever stay in "mod" phase. Being inspired by your favourite games is fine, mimicking them is not. Read this: [url:3t9l24d5]http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051026/gabler_01.shtml. It have many good ideas about designing process. You somehow managed to skip whole process of making some concept, you just blindly jumped into ballancing weapons and enemies from two completely different sources. Thats what usually comes as very last. Example: You are arguing how the mage flechette is useless but thats really petty problem compared to other problems HeXen have. For example HeXen never actually used the potencial of different classes to its true extent. All characters plays more or less the same, they dont have much differences later in game. Good game that used different classes differently is HeXplore or Trine. HeXen lacks this. This is major problem (from my point of view) in HeXen design. You are approaching whole desingning process from inside, from minor problems and thats wrong. Starting by solving minor things first will lead to overall inconsistency because you will miss larger context. You are thinking about what should be left and what should be abbandoned but instead you should be thinking about what does your mod/game needs and how to get the desired outcome. [quote="borsuk":3t9l24d5]I won't get far without skilled artists, though, and they are usually greedy pigs and unwilling to work for free. (If any skilled artists are reading this: apparently there's not enough of you, otherwise Korax Mod/Scattered Evil would be long finished). *whistles & trying to hide my lazy greedy pig ass* BTW do you know lizardcommando from ZDooM forums? What that guy made with mspaint is awesome.

As for new ideas, a lot of new ideas can't be easily incorporated into Hexen because they're limited by layout and style of original Hexen WADs. For example levels tend to be very closed with a lot of short distance fights. A mod with truly new mechanics would need a new big WAD. That's a huge task for a single person if done manually, without help of random level generators like Oblige.

Ask UltimateDoomer about this...

[quote="NeoWorm":1x5rri8e] As far as my gamedesigning experience goes I think this is not the right way to design your own game. You have to decide if you want your own game or a mod. If you start by ripping ideas from Heretic and Hexen you will forever stay in "mod" phase. Being inspired by your favourite games is fine, mimicking them is not. I think starting with a new, standalone game is a good way to get a new overambitious, never finished project, and the internet doesn't need any more of those. I prefer to exceed my expectations instead of falling short. Technically, it will be a mod, but I'm planning to abandon some limitations of Hexen (the main WAD in particular) and rethink it. Probably not a total conversion, though. Read this: [url:1x5rri8e]http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20051026/gabler_01.shtml. It have many good ideas about designing process. I've read many of these, usually golden advice although I disagree on a few of minor points. One thing I don't like is that the articles are centered around commercial game development, because that's what the author is familiar with.(I'm speaking about Douglas Adams from Bullfrog, the article you linked seems to be about World of GOo). I'm trying to say modding and open-source projects are a viable way to create a good game. Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is a good game ( <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/">http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/</a><!-- m --> ). As for modding, many games started as mods for Warcraft3, Unreal Tournament, Half-Life, or Quake, and got wildly succesful. Later standalone games have been made on the concepts. (Demigod, Team Fortress 2, Heroes of Newerth, Counterstrike, Left 4 Dead...)

You somehow managed to skip whole process of making some concept, you just blindly jumped into ballancing weapons and enemies from two completely different sources.

It's because the first mod I'm working on is going to stay close to Hexen. I'm looking at things I can improve in Hexen. That's a good way to test my skills I think. I've already succeeded in making flechettes valuable for Mage, and not by modifying Flechettes. By modifying Sapphire Wand, which no longer kills swarms of enemies from afar. And I think I'm going to use fast ("Nightmare") ettins, because that turned out well in my playtests. They really put pressure on Mage.

You are arguing how the mage flechette is useless but thats really petty problem compared to other problems HeXen have. For example HeXen never actually used the potencial of different classes to its true extent. All characters plays more or less the same, they dont have much differences later in game.

A petty problem it may be, but it contributes to others. I think I've succeeded in giving flechettes a niche when playing mage. Mage can't deal with large numbers of enemies who are close, and flechettes are a limited supply of high short-ranged damage. I'm working on making classes play differently, not necessarily in the late game. I think Hexen in general overstayed its welcome. It stops introducing new elements at, say, the end of Heresiarch's Seminary hub. No weapons, no enemies, nothing. Just more levels, and increasingly frustrating puzzles and traps. For examples of things I'm working on: - I'm exploring ways of making Mace of Contrition interesting and viable even in late game. It shouldn't be too similar to Spiked Gauntlets, but there should be situations where a cleric would want to use the mace, or at the very least where he can use it without taking a lot of damage. Current implementation pushes monsters away quite a lot - enough to keep a single ettin away, but you have to retreat when there are more. Basically where Fighter can rip through enemies in melee, my intention is that Cleric can use mace to fight defensively. I would also like to try Forcepain flag, but it doesn't seem to be implemented in Vavoom at the moment. - I'm looking for ways to make Spiked Gauntlets more different from Timon's Axe. - 3rd weapons of all classes are quite similar: strong ranged attack. Hammer for example is so cheap fighter can all but forget about cutting enemies up close. I have an idea for a ranged weapon which is more fitting and would encourage different playstyle. - I'm going to make some of items work differently for classes. Discs of repulsion for sure, they're going to pull enemies closer when used by Fighter. (...) I'm trying to come up with a consistent plan for Fighter, Mage, and Cleric. So far I have this: Fighter is up close and aggressive, Mage is bad up close and wants to stay away, Cleric... fights more defensively I guess.

Good game that used different classes differently is HeXplore or Trine.

I have Trine, but I need to refresh my memory on Hexplore.

BTW do you know lizardcommando from ZDooM forums? What that guy made with mspaint is awesome.

Assuming he is, it's sad people like this are rare.

Ask UltimateDoomer about this...

Maybe I'm just not capable of making a lot of good levels quickly.

Firestorm analysis

It's actually dependent on monster size...against wide monsters it's good, against thinner monsters it fails quite a lot.

Arc of Death analysis

Likewise it's success is conditional...in this case it's room height. In short rooms it's unstoppable, in tall rooms it fails...and in the air you'll be lucky to get it to hit.

Maybe I'm just not capable of making a lot of good levels quickly.

Heh, it's taken me way too long to finish the mod...so 'quickly' doesn't really apply :p

- Rocket launcher, Lighting Gun and Grenade Launcher to some extent are by far the most powerful weapons in Quake multiplayer. They're so effective that experienced players often don't pick other weapons up. These features overshadow other features. They're no-brainers.

It's worse in the one-weapon universe known as Doom 2 multiplayer. And to compound it, the weapon (ssg) is given away on spawn in the majority of user-made maps...you couldn't get any worse as far as balancing goes.

Borsuk, you should make your own MOD if all these things bother you so much. Wendigos and Slaughtaurs are the NASTIEST monsters in Hexen, if you play on the hardest or 2nd hardest difficulty, and either one of these sneaks up on you, your dead, end of story. As for weapons, they all got their usefulness: Heretic Weapons: 0. Staff - The only reason this exists is for the n00bs that run out of ammo and didn't find the Necro Gaunts. Same perspective applies to Doom Marine's Rust Knuckle when a n00b runs out of ammo and did not find the Chainsaw. 1. Necro Gaunts - Use these against single golem targets or use this against imps to conserve ammo. You will kill the target while taking little/no damage. 2. Elven Wand - Heretic's version of the Doom Pistol. You also just started the game with a sniper rifle, if you shoot single shots between shooting animations of the weapon firing, it hits where you aimed it no matter how far away you are. 3. Ethereal Crossbow - Heretic's version of the Doom Shotgun, only differences is the bolts travel as opposed to instant hit spread. Other advantage is the middle bolt does more damage and goes where you aimed it, this weapon can kill any monster you come across. 4. Dragon Claw - Heretic's Version of the Doom Chaingun, this gun is better than the Chaingun because it pierces armor more than any other weapon. Highly effective in open field and/or death matcha gainst human players. 5. Hell Staff - Heretic's version of the Doom Plasma Gun. This thing is total ownage in building type enviroments, but not so much in open field. It's damage output is high and can be used to take out any target you wish. 6. Phoenix Staff - Heretic's version of the Doom Rocket Launcher. Murders just about anything it hits provided that you DO hit it. Can kill yourself often in Heretic due to their being alot of melee type monsters that sneak up on you. 7. Fire Mace - This weapon is unique, it fires cannon ball looking projectiles at a machine gun type ROF. The weapon distance is very short but the damage it deals is awesome. Most effective in close quarters vs big targets such as Were Dragons and Iron Liches.Not recommended for use in water enviroments due to the balls disappearing when they touch water. Hexen Weapons: Fighter: 1. Spiked Gauntlets - Good for bashing Ettins and Centaurs at close range with no cost of mana. You are screwed against ranged attackers if you cannot get to them. 2. Timmons Axe - Good for killing all monsters at close range, not so well as the reason listed above. This weapon gets highly repetitive though. 3. Hammer of Retribution - Effective vs everything, especialy stationary ranged targets. The melee attack deals heavy damage but at a slower rate compared to the axe. Best to stick with this for ranged attackers. 4. Quietus - This sword rapes everything, if he target lives from the 1st wave it is heavily poisoned and will mostly likely die shortly after getting hit. only issue with this weapon is that the mana consumption is too great to use regularly, the majoirty of players only pull this out to take out bosses or score the last remaining kill sin death match at short notice. Cleric: 1. Mace - A sucky Melee weapon that will only save you vs ettins and Imps that arent in groups of more than 3. only used as a last resort if you run out of mana. Good for taking out single centaurs if your hurting on mana as well. 2. Serpent Staff - An excellent ranged weapon that poisons the enemy target, not good against large mobs , but the mana cost makes this fluently useable. The life steal abilty can only be used efficiently against Ettins and Imps, anything else would cost you more than you gain. 3. Firestorm - Effective vs everything at short to medium Range, long range is out of the question due to it having a range restriction. Most effective vs Centaurs and Slaughtaurs. Bad side is it eats too much green mana to use this weapon fluently. 4. Wraithverge - This weapon is beyond cheap, it kills everything at any distance and requires no real effort to use. Because it so effective you can literaly spam this weapon more than the other weapons. The ghosts that fly out and claw you hit the target 5 times before disappearing or disappear at the time limit. As usual people only pull this out vs large mobs or bosses. Mage: 1. Saphire Wand - An excellent weapon for medium to long range attacks, also has a railgun effect when hitting targets, making this efficient to take out large mobs when the other spells cannot. An awesome starter weapon to have overall. 2. Frost Shards - This spell is devastating at close/medium range, either get hit by the 30 ice blades that come out of the spell or get frozen by the point blank attack known as Icy Touch. Getting hit by the Icy Touch deals twice the amount of damage than 30 ice blades and it hits 10% faster. If the player is a proffesional Mage, he will not hesitate to run up and grab you by the balls. 3. Arc of Death - Very effective spell at any range, only disadvantage is can only hurt one target per arc. using this spell against mobs is not recommended. Best effectiveness is large targets in an open field. Another downside to this spel is that it consumes too much green mana for fluent use. 4. BloodScourge - Pain incarnate, this is the big bad daddy of the Saphire Wand. It fires 3 fireballs that seek targets like the Wraithverge and continue to railgun through targets untill the timer of the shots runs out. This weapon has the biggest mana consumption and people only use this against bosses (mainly). So you see, 98% of the weapons have their advantages. Judging by your posts I would safely assume that you would get owned trying to play Diablo 2. XD

The Fire Mace from Heretic is meant to be used in conjunction with the Tome of Power. Those big balls oneshot every regular monster, including Ophidians that would need several direct hits from the Phoenix Rod otherwise. It does have a diminished effect vs monsters classified as bosses, just like other overly powerful weapons (e.g. the powered up version of the Hellstaff).

This is how I see the weapons: Heretic [list:n80i2faa][*:n80i2faa]Staff - I use this against golems (sometimes even nitrogolems), sabreclaws, and gargoyles (non-shooting) to save ammo, which is quite helpful on some maps. Against anything else, it is an invitation to disaster because of its weak power. It's absolutely ineffective against ghosts, and I almost never use the powered up version, because even though there's a knockback, it seems weaker than it should be.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Gauntlets - I tend use these on any kind of golem and gargoyles, and sometimes even wizards if it's the only other enemy in a small room. I don't use it against weredragons, ophidians, and curiously, sabreclaws. I tend to take more damage from them than itf I were to use the staff. The powered up version can be used on just about anything. I've even used it on maulotaurs, since most of the time, the drain rate is a little faster than the damage received.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Elvenwand - Good for saving ammo and hitting those far away enemies, but it's not really a good idea to try killing an iron lich with it unless you know you can find some more ammo. It takes around 50, maybe more shots to kill one, and it's a rather slow, tedious task. Never mind that you have to dodge all of his attacks in the meantime. The powered up version is best for crowds, especially crowds of golems.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Crossbow - Now this is a nice weapon. Fortunately, most maps add plenty of ammo for this, and knights and weredragons can be a blessing if you're lucky. The powered up version can do some serious damage, and I tend to use it against maulotaurs and D'Sparil, or just crowds of enemies if I'm in the mood.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Dragonclaw - Like the elvenwand, but a greater rate of fire and damage. I do like the fact that you can see whether it hit something or not by the change in the impact puff. I hardly use the powered up version because it uses up too much ammo for its worth.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Hellstaff - In many cases, you're going to have full or near full ammo capacity before you even find one of these because of all the sabreclaws, and the larger runes can refill your ammo real quick (1 greater rune = 100 shots or 1/4 ammo capacity with backpack). It's good for just about anything, although it can be a bit difficult to see when firing. The powered up version is nice, but oddly enough, it's not all that great against bosses. It's really best to use for crowds. Also, you can only have two rain columns active at a time, but in areas with low ceilings, that's enough. Fire a couple of shots at an enemy in front and watch as the rest of them follow them through the rain.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Phoenix Rod - Fun for the whole family. Much like the hellstaff, you're probably going to have some ammo collected before finding this because of all the ophidians, and once you do find one, ophidians w ill become your favorite enemy. Two hits is all it takes and they have a reasonable chance to drop a flame orb worth 5 shots. The powered up version can destroy just about anything, and two full shots on a maulotaur is usually enough to kill it (best to use invincibility first). Just don't let go of the fire button early because the next time you press it, it uses up another shot. Also, be careful to notice when the tome of power is about to wear off, or you might get a facefull of phoenix rod explosion[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Firemace - Normal version = not fun. Powered up version = very fun. The big balls move in accordance to the momentum of whoever shot it. If you're running forward, it will travel faster than if you were stationary. If you're moving backwards, it will move slower, move backwards, or even bounce in the same spot. It's better if they did move slower because with each bounce, they seek after a target, and if they were going to fast, there's a good chance they will miss the target. Also stationary balls are good for traps (although eventually it will bounce into the ceiling). One aspect of this thing that few people know is the balls can telefrag the shooter. Also, if you're hit with one of these while you have the chaos device, you will automatically use one while losing 1/2 of your health, but you won't die.[/*:m:n80i2faa][/list:u:n80i2faa] Hexen [list:n80i2faa][*:n80i2faa]Fists - Good for smacking ettins around, but I prefer the axe.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Axe - More powerful than the fists and has a larger range. This is good for taking out those pesky afrits and stalkers in a single hit. Also, centaurs go down quick. Slaughtaurs...not so much, but if you can dodge their attacks, the axe can deal with them with relative ease.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Hammer - Very nice for getting everything the axe can't reach, and is sorely needed on Brackenwood. Once you do get it, those death wyverns are much easier to deal with. The melee attack is nice and strong, but a bit slow. Fortunately, it doesn't use any mana, but if you're trying to hit a centaur like this, be careful that you don't end up throwing a hammer when you least expect or want it.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Quietus - Not quite as powerful as you might expect. I don't normally use this except against Korax or the Heresiarch, or dealing with crowds of enemies. Otherwise, it really isn't worth the mana usage. [/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Mace - Slow, weak. This is what the axe is like when you run out of mana. I use this if I'm trying to save mana or if I haven't found something else yet. It's somewhat effective against centaurs and stalkers though.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Serpent Staff - This is a nice one. You can get a quick 20-25 HP boost from an ettin, but just be careful you don't get hit, and don't try it against a centaur unless you're feeling brave or lucky. The slightly unpredictable shots make it a bit hard to aim at far away enemies sometimes, at medium range when both shots can hit the target, it's very effective.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Firestorm - This is a strange one. The medium range limit isn't so bad, and the almost instant attack makes up for it. However, it can't hit small targets worth anything. For instance, try shooting a pine tree with this. You'd expect it to go up in flames immediately. Instead, more ofteh than not, the flames will just circle around an unburnt tree. Against centaurs, it isn't much better. However, against most everything else, it can kill rather quickly.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Wraithverge - Press a button, monsters go boom. One shot is really all you need for most areas. Even the centaur's shield can't protect it, but it's not a real good idea to use this against the Heresiarch. [/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Wand - This peashooter is good if you want to save ammo, but horrible against centaurs.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Frost Shards - This is another fun one. It's quite effective against centaurs and most everything else, but you'll need to be at a specific distance to get the full benefits. Too far away and the shards will spread out too far to hit the target. Too close (yet outside melee range) and not all of the shards will even spawn.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Arc of Death - I like this one, but not quite for the same reason as most people. Sure, it can clobber anything in a room with a low ceiling, but you might want to save it for the larger enemies or if you're out in the open. If the lightning hits a wall while it's on an enemy, it will stop no matter what. In certain areas of maps like the Dungeon, it is utterly useless because it will dissapate before it has a chance to do much damage to anything. However, in more open maps, it cane be devastating, especially against centaurs. Now, another fun thing about this is that it travels over cliffs and barriers of any height. If used properly, you could hit targets that you can't even see, and once you've got a target, it will make subsequent shots much easier to hit their target and do heavy damage. Another use is to hit enemies that are below you. If you suspect an enemy of being in a pit below you (i.e. the end of the long hallway in Tradactus' Tomb or the Wasteland entrance section of Shadow Wood), just fire a shot and it will hit the first thing it comes across. Finally, it cannot be reflected by the Heresiarch's shield, so it's a safe weapon to use against him.[/*:m:n80i2faa] [*:n80i2faa]Bloodscourge - I tend to use this more for the homing properties rather than the power. For instance, in the glitter bridge section of the Griffin Chapel, you can fire it and it will get rid of all of the afrits in the area. However, as powerful as it is, it can easily be wasted by the shots going for another target that you didn't want and the shots hitting a nearby wall. But then, I suppose it has to be like that, since the fireballs will only explode if they hit a wall. Fortunately, they don't hurt the player, so you can get right up into that enemy mob and go nuts...unless it's the Heresiarch.[/*:m:n80i2faa][/list:u:n80i2faa]

You say the wand is horrible against centaurs, but unless I misunderstood you I disagree. The wand is perfect for nailing down a centaur. AFAIK it is also the only weapon besides the poison gas from the Cleric's Flechettes that can harm a shielded centaur from the front.

Elvenwand - Good for saving ammo and hitting those far away enemies, but it's not really a good idea to try killing an iron lich with it unless you know you can find some more ammo.

Or if the lich is just round the wall or behind barrels.

It does eventually kill a centaur, but it takes so long by itself. However, it is good for keeping them in one place while you set down a flechette or two.