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SE city

Sun, 21 Dec 2008 21:25:55

RambOrc

This is the new thread for the main city of the province SE takes places in. Latest version is at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/city_2008-12-21.zip">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... -12-21.zip</a><!-- m -->
Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:03:03

RambOrc

1) Is there a way to put a "Sun" into the map? I tried setting a light source at the ceiling of the outdoors sectors with the max allowed radius (255) but it only illuminated a small part of the area. 2) What kind of doors should I build into this and other town maps? I guess the upwards sliding doors of classic DOOM are out, should they be 3D models, 3D floors, polyobjects or a combination of these?
Mon, 22 Dec 2008 12:07:52

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":xwr0cuki]1) Is there a way to put a "Sun" into the map? I tried setting a light source at the ceiling of the outdoors sectors with the max allowed radius (255) but it only illuminated a small part of the area. Probably no way. If you put a number of these, shadows will be screwed up. If only vavoom allowed to set up sky light... Also, maybe we can make special Static light thing which allows larger radius (Arg1 as low digits, Arg2 as high digits, that will allow 65535 value max, which is 65535 * 8 = 524280 map units <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc6.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> ). [quote="RambOrc":xwr0cuki]What kind of doors should I build into this and other town maps? I guess the upwards sliding doors of classic DOOM are out, should they be 3D models, 3D floors, polyobjects or a combination of these? Why the "upwards sliding doors of classic DOOM are out"? Do you mean you want to make opening doors below the sloped roofs or that you just do not want to make classic ones? In first case ONLY 3d floors will be useful.
Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:04:04

Firebrand

[quote="Crimson Wizard":1rxifloq]Also, maybe we can make special Static light thing which allows larger radius (Arg1 as low digits, Arg2 as high digits, that will allow 65535 value max, which is 65535 * 8 = 524280 map units <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc6.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> ). Technically it's possible, but how much time it would require to actually pre-render the shadows? <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Also, it could have performance issues somehow? I don't know, but it would be a crazy idea to test out, haha! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> [quote="RambOrc":1rxifloq]What kind of doors should I build into this and other town maps? I guess the upwards sliding doors of classic DOOM are out, should they be 3D models, 3D floors, polyobjects or a combination of these? I would also like to know, why are you saying this?
Mon, 22 Dec 2008 15:12:26

RambOrc

If the pre-rendering can be done in advance and doesn't happen in-game, it should be OK. Otherwise, if it makes load times long, it is not a good option. It's one thing to have doors that slide upwards in a dungeon where who knows what kind of strange gears and apparatus move the doors, but in a normal town where people live they build doors that simply open if you push them. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->
Mon, 22 Dec 2008 15:33:12

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":2eu22ssf] It's one thing to have doors that slide upwards in a dungeon where who knows what kind of strange gears and apparatus move the doors, but in a normal town where people live they build doors that simply open if you push them. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Well, there's a point. I'll make it clear then. 3dfloors can be moved up/down only. They cannot move to sides and be rotated. Polyobjects can be rotated and moved to sides, BUT they cannot be 3dfloors, that means they will always be stretched from lowest floor to highest ceiling at current place. Models can do everything, I suppose.
Mon, 22 Dec 2008 15:35:29

RambOrc

So if there is no 3D floor above a doorway (or below of course), I am best served with polyobjects, right?
Mon, 22 Dec 2008 15:36:32

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":23j3do4l]So if there is no 3D floor above a doorway (or below of course), I am best served with polyobjects, right? Yeah, exactly.
Mon, 22 Dec 2008 15:44:29

Firebrand

If that's what you wish, then you could make normal polyobject doors IMO <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->. EDIT: Sorry, didn't read the whole thread <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc10.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( -->.
Mon, 22 Dec 2008 17:15:21

RambOrc

New version under <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/city_2008-12-22.zip">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... -12-22.zip</a><!-- m --> A few months back you mentioned new features in Vavoom like that horizon linedef stuff, can you make a demo map with all the new features so I can check them out?
Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:12:13

Firebrand

Sure! I'll make a small map showing advanced skyboxes and line horizon specials <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->, which might be the most useful ones right now IMO.
Tue, 23 Dec 2008 14:31:26

Crimson Wizard

I was able to jump to the roofs near main gates and walk to the right, where I fell down and saw world's end <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:23:05

RambOrc

Can you give me the coordinates?
Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:05:28

Stryker

Thats a really cool map, Ramborc. I can't wait to see it with all the NPCs in there. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc6.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Man, I wish I could map things like that. <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orchmm.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? -->
Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:05:56

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":u7fbdqhm]Can you give me the coordinates? It's a corner of the house (-4224, -3328); I can see you made one of the lines impassable there, but I managed to jump from other side (that faces steps) [quote="Stryker":u7fbdqhm]Man, I wish I could map things like that. <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orchmm.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? --> I think you can <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> it's not so difficult anyway, it requires patience. I tried myself, it's real fun to make all those pretty houses with sloped roofs <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
Tue, 23 Dec 2008 23:25:45

RambOrc

Fixed, also some other possible jump points in the vicinity. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/city_2008-12-23.zip">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... -12-23.zip</a><!-- m --> with a few new things added.
Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:41:59

RambOrc

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/city_2008-12-28.zip">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... -12-28.zip</a><!-- m --> a few additions here and there.
Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:11:41

Stryker

Looking even better, Ramborc. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc6.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> I did, however, find several missing textures scattered throughout the map... I'd list a few if I could remember them atm...
Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:46:34

RambOrc

In unfinished areas, I often didn't bother adding missing textures, it's mostly when I cut away the overhanging upper stories that are the standard template for all city streets originally.
Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:47:53

Stryker

Yeah, those were the only spots I noticed it. Otherwise there seemed to be no other problems with the map.
Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:22:33

RambOrc

Yesterday's version: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/city_2008-12-30.zip">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... -12-30.zip</a><!-- m -->
Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:43:14

RambOrc

[quote="Firebrand":1miazt8e]Sure! I'll make a small map showing advanced skyboxes and line horizon specials <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->, which might be the most useful ones right now IMO. /poke <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Or is there a description on how to implement these?
Fri, 02 Jan 2009 15:16:28

Crimson Wizard

There should be description on Zdoom wiki. Anyway, I made this map quickly, hope you'll find most of what you need there: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/skybox.wad">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... skybox.wad</a><!-- m --> It includes 3 skyboxes for 3 different places. Starting sector has 1 horizont line (turn around) and 1st skybox has all of its lines as horizont, that makes walls of the skybox not show up at all. 3rd skybox has 1st skybox above itself, thus it's sort of a stacked skybox. Skybox sector is defined by putting Sky Viewer thing inside. It determines the point of view for sky flat in all sectors which use that skybox. If you put no tag on Sky Viewer, I believe, it will be shown in ALL sectors with F_SKY flat. Excplicit skybox selection for each particular sector is done using Sky Picker thing. It's Arg1 should be equal to Sky Viewer tag. I think Firebrand mentioned something about horizont line makes copies of decor into distance, but I did not find if this possible to make.
Fri, 02 Jan 2009 18:19:58

RambOrc

I've checked out both the example map and the ZDOOM wiki, but I am still a bit confused as to what exactly does what. As far as I could see, the things 9080 and 9081 in pair define what skybox is added to a sector, their first arguments must much. Horizon drawing seems to be determined by adding a 9 in the box before the first argument that's visible in WadAuthor normally, and it looks like I can't use a floor texture on a wall or I will get visual errors (not the case with normal sector walls).
Fri, 02 Jan 2009 18:40:10

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":38bgaz2w]As far as I could see, the things 9080 and 9081 in pair define what skybox is added to a sector, their first arguments must much. Not both 1st args, 1st arg of Picker should match Viewer's tag. [quote="RambOrc":38bgaz2w]Horizon drawing seems to be determined by adding a 9 in the box before the first argument that's visible in WadAuthor normally, and it looks like I can't use a floor texture on a wall or I will get visual errors (not the case with normal sector walls). That "box" for Action Special. And I do not understand why you are putting floor texture on wall. But it's true that WadAuthor cannot do that.
Fri, 02 Jan 2009 19:21:42

RambOrc

I was trying to put the floor texture there because otherwise at certain angles the different-looking wall of the extended sector was visible.
Sat, 03 Jan 2009 13:47:14

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":1a2tukyo]I was trying to put the floor texture there because otherwise at certain angles the different-looking wall of the extended sector was visible. Hm, well, either you use Doombuildr for that, or create dummy wall texture with the same name as the floor texture you want there.
Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:52:39

RambOrc

WadAuthor can put a floor texture on a wall just fine unless the linedef is a horizon.
Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:56:35

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":1v09tq0n]WadAuthor can put a floor texture on a wall just fine unless the linedef is a horizon. Weird, how can that be? You mean it does not allow to select a floor texture there only if wall has line special = 9? Or do you mean it does not show up well in game (which has nothing to do with WadAuthor then)? EDIT: There's something even more weird. I downloaded WadAuthor again and checked how it works. I am really confused; for example, you wrote that you put "9" into first box on line properties, but in WadAuthor I could find there's no such "box" to enter line special id in, it has a selection list instead, more, Vavoom config for Wad Author does not have Line Horizon line special at all for some reason. <!-- s:-k --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_think.gif" alt=":-k" title="Think" /><!-- s:-k --> Can you tell which version of WadAuthor do you use?
Sat, 03 Jan 2009 16:21:24

Stryker

Geez, just use Doombuilder. I find that one to be so much better... Heh, just had to add my two cents to the problem. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->
Sat, 03 Jan 2009 17:39:11

RambOrc

[quote="Crimson Wizard":3h7i2h8u]do you mean it does not show up well in game (which has nothing to do with WadAuthor then)? Exactly. As for adding the attribute 9 to a linedef, use "edit raw data".
Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:55:20

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":kv9jki73][quote="Crimson Wizard":kv9jki73]do you mean it does not show up well in game (which has nothing to do with WadAuthor then)? Exactly. I am not aware of what problems you may encounter when using that horizont special, and I am not sure I understood what exactly you are doing (regarding level architecture), so I need to look at your map to understand it better.
Sat, 03 Jan 2009 19:14:25

RambOrc

You can check what I mean on your own example map, just replace the wall texture of your SW sector with a floor texture (the one with the horizon linedef). You can also try what happens when you remove the wall texture altogether.
Sat, 03 Jan 2009 20:57:44

RambOrc

BTW looks like I can only use 255 tags in a map?
Sat, 03 Jan 2009 21:09:55

RambOrc

Current version: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/city_2009-01-03.zip">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... -01-03.zip</a><!-- m -->
Sun, 04 Jan 2009 15:23:43

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":24ruucb3]BTW looks like I can only use 255 tags in a map? Yes. 255 tags for sectors and 255 separate tags for things. It's a heritage of old Hexen engine, where people tried to save PC memory as much as possible <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Vavoom itself stores Tag as 4-byte integer, but map format has 1 byte (and so are map editors).
Sun, 04 Jan 2009 15:39:55

RambOrc

Huh? You mean if I use tag nr. 5 for a sector and tag nr. 5 for a thing it's not the same tag?
Sun, 04 Jan 2009 17:49:17

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":3f8yhgcg]Huh? You mean if I use tag nr. 5 for a sector and tag nr. 5 for a thing it's not the same tag? Ofcourse, they are different. There are 3 types of tags which do not have anything with each other: - Sector tags - Thing tags - Line tags, set using Line_SetIdentification (or something like that) action special
Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:10:23

RambOrc

For example a 3D sloped floor, I assign a thing and a linedef and a sector the same tag number and it is the same tag for both the thing and the sector, so I don't see how what you say is possible. <!-- s:?: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_question.gif" alt=":?:" title="Question" /><!-- s:?: -->
Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:24:19

Firebrand

IIRC, things, lines and sectors share the same tag numbers, so there's no difference in tagging things and sectors with the same number, strange things can happen if you use scripts with this sharing of tags. Unless Vavoom has found a way through this, but I'm not sure... EDIT: BTW, still working on the demo map for Vavoom's latest features, you'll have it soon <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->.
Mon, 05 Jan 2009 01:45:54

RambOrc

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/city_2009-01-04.zip">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... -01-04.zip</a><!-- m --> I think a slope object's tag inside a sector pointing to a linedef of another sector can be reused for a sector slope some distance away (no adjoining sector) if the tag is not used for anything else, is that right? That wouldn't allow me to save tag numbers on 3D floor slopes, but at least the slopes that are not on 3D floors could be reused.
Mon, 05 Jan 2009 13:59:18

Crimson Wizard

[quote="Firebrand":3cauho9f]IIRC, things, lines and sectors share the same tag numbers Nope, they DO NOT SHARE, and they CAN NOT. I'll explain, it's all about logic. When you say script to move some floor, for instance, up or down, engine will seek for tagged sectors ONLY, and not things or lines, 'cause it's stupid. That means that you can use tag 5 on sector, tag 5 on thing and, say, line identification 5, and these will not cause any problems. To make it more clear: it is all because in scripts we have functions that apply some changes to EITHER sector, OR thing, OR line, there are NO function that would apply changes to all types of stuff in the world at once. Ofcourse, hypothetically there could be some situation where you need MATCHING tags on thing and sector, but that's different, I do not recall any such situation possible. [quote="RambOrc":3cauho9f]I think a slope object's tag inside a sector pointing to a linedef of another sector can be reused for a sector slope some distance away (no adjoining sector) if the tag is not used for anything else, is that right? Yeah, that's absolutely right, for instance I usually use only tag 200 for slope things if there are no adjanced slopes with same "origin" linedef already. [quote="RambOrc":3cauho9f]That wouldn't allow me to save tag numbers on 3D floor slopes [quote="RambOrc":3cauho9f]For example a 3D sloped floor, I assign a thing and a linedef and a sector the same tag number and it is the same tag for both the thing and the sector, so I don't see how what you say is possible. <!-- s:?: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_question.gif" alt=":?:" title="Question" /><!-- s:?: --> This means little sense. When you make 3d floor sloped, you do not need to match slope thing Tag and sector tag at all; and linedef do not need identification, it should have Arg1 set instead, which is not Tag. You do as always (as common slopes), only slope thing Tag and corresponding linedef's Arg1 must match.
Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:27:05

RambOrc

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/city_2009-01-20.zip">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... -01-20.zip</a><!-- m --> You should run this with KoraxRPG binary otherwise you will miss a bunch of models and NPCs.
Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:14:26

RambOrc

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/city_2009-01-24.zip">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... -01-24.zip</a><!-- m --> , the tavern is coming along nicely. Regarding chandeliers: 1) The 3D version is hanging a bit too low, i.e. its top is not attaching to ceilings but is somewhat below. 2) How do I put a chandelier at the ceiling of a room above which there are further rooms (3D floors)? Regarding models in general: 1) Adding a negative Z value doesn't do anything, in some cases it would be useful (see above). 2) Some models should be able to "hang in the air" and not fall down due to gravity (e.g. barrels, so they can be stacked on each other).
Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:24:44

Firebrand

[quote="RambOrc":32n9y0ag]1) The 3D version is hanging a bit too low, i.e. its top is not attaching to ceilings but is somewhat below. Maybe a problem with offsetting on Z on the model definitions. I'll give it a check. [quote="RambOrc":32n9y0ag]2) How do I put a chandelier at the ceiling of a room above which there are further rooms (3D floors)? You would need to assign them different Z coordinates on the map editor, things that hang on the ceiling, just hang at the highest ceiling (the one of the actual sector, not the ones of the 3d floors). [quote="RambOrc":32n9y0ag]Regarding models in general: 1) Adding a negative Z value doesn't do anything, in some cases it would be useful (see above). 2) Some models should be able to "hang in the air" and not fall down due to gravity (e.g. barrels, so they can be stacked on each other). This isn't completely related to models, but actual objects into the engine, I'll try to explain myself, one thing is the model definition, that just indicates which sprites will be replaced by models, scaling of the models, offsets, etc. and another thing is the actual in-game object, which is placed in the map editor, this means that if we want stacked barrels, we'll need to add some flags to the object itself. BTW, about the barrels, have you actually tried putting them on the same X/Y coordinates in the map editor and giving one of the barrels higher Z coordinates? IIRC they should fall to the ground and stack one on another... but I would have to test it myself to confirm this behavior <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->.
Sat, 24 Jan 2009 22:19:26

RambOrc

In original Hexen, they fall on each other as well in source ports. The one exception is KMOD in which they don't since it was a feature I requested from Camper back in 2001. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> As for the chandeliers, modifying the Z value doesn't move them to another 3D floor's ceiling. Or would I need to put the chandelier on the special sector that's the 3D floor?
Sun, 25 Jan 2009 01:44:20

Firebrand

It should work by moving the Z value... I'll check it out and see what's the problem.
Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:59:09

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":fn8wlh61]As for the chandeliers, modifying the Z value doesn't move them to another 3D floor's ceiling. Or would I need to put the chandelier on the special sector that's the 3D floor? Just a small comment for the future: putting anything into special sector that makes 3d floor won't achieve anything, because that sector is used only for creating 3d floors in startup time, and it does not copy any things. Z value can be either relative or absolute. Relative value (like for torches for instance) positions thing relative to the lowest floor, and absolute (like for static light) positions it... well, relative to world's zero.
Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:54:41

RambOrc

Can I specify whether I am using a relative or absolute Z value?
Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:11:58

Firebrand

IIRC, no, it's determined by the thing you are placing, so as CW said, if you are placing a decoration or monster objects, they will use relative values, but if you are placing inert objects (not actually seen) they will use absolute values.
Mon, 02 Feb 2009 22:35:00

RambOrc

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/city_2009-02-02.zip">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... -02-02.zip</a><!-- m --> , with the first door in the whole city.
Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:45:33

Crimson Wizard

Have you tried making custom dialogs yet? I can see these peasants use sample dialog I created for them originally.
Wed, 04 Feb 2009 16:25:55

RambOrc

Since I'm currently only working on the architecture, I just put them there so I can get a better feel of the scale of buildings, and to check for possible slowdowns/problems with lots of them visible (like in the tavern).

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