After checking out the current KA development state, installing KMOD 2.8 and toying with it a bit, and looking over the speed of development during 2006, here is my take: KA: it's ready for a public beta in its current state. Nevermind the bugs, it's working well enough. So as soon as you can wrap it up into a full release (including full glvis files and not only MIDI but also MP3 songs!), just upload it to KDEV and post here. I'll put the file on a much faster server so people can quickly and easily download it. RPG: we'll have to work with what we have and accept realities. This means once again going through those dozens of maps we have at our disposal (see the old SE design doc for most of the maps, they are somewhere on kdev too), put them together with the original Hexen and DK maps, browse around for everything else we have and is useable, then adjust the storyline to be able to run with the map collection we have, and release it that way. Enhancing some of the maps with 3D effects is cool but if there aren't any, that's acceptable too. After taking a look at some original Hexen maps, they are good enough without extra mapping wizardry. Same goes for some custom maps. Doing things this way and using the artwork we've accumulated over the years, we mostly need to put in the advanced features only (quests, NPCs, story elements, items, monsters etc) and we need lots of programming, but that department is strongest ATM so I don't foresee much trouble with that part. Optimizing things this way the RPG might actually see the light of day in 2007. As always, feel free to discuss.

KA: Sounds good. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Sorry I never got to beta test it. <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: --> RPG: I think we all know these projects are in an extremely messy state right now, since we've bombarded it with more ideas than characteristics. I think before we make any more concepts to the project, we have to first do some massive streamlining with what we have (getting tougher on these loosely related maps/sprites/codes and getting rid of the stuff that doesn't "fit" with the game). Here's step-by-step approach to what I propose: 1) Ask ourselves, "why are we doing this?" "What do we want to accomplish with this project?" "Do we want to make the most ambitious TC of Hexen ever? Or is this just an unofficial sequel as has been implied earlier?" All this is intermental discussion to put us all on the same wavelength. This is crucial because if all of us have different goals for this project, the project will be unorganized and thus will suffer drastically. 2) Make a good storyline. Not just a before-game-starts history, but a full-fledged plot detailing how the game will progress and end, possibly considering alternative endings like in Strife. And bear in mind this "storyline" involves more than just plot, but also the setting, time, demographics, etc. 3) Take a look at everything we've implemented into the RPG already since 2001. The stuff that best fits the plot/setting/synopsis will get higher priority than that which doesn't. Bluntly speaking, the most irrelevant material must be discarded (though for sedimentary and historical purposes we shouldn't delete it altogether, unless it's absolute shit). 4) Now that we've discarded the irrelevant/obselete, and are left with the already-made material that fits our synopsis, we are ready to make fresh new material that actually has a sense of direction and objective. Instead of just me going, "Here's a new map I made that we can put in SE somewhere," we have to assess the map to see if it seriously belongs in the project. Doing otherwise could make the project more disorganized and less unified. (to paraphrase, we should all ask for democratic consent to design something before we design it and wave it in each other's faces.) I promise to beta test all our projects when I'm free, it's just that mid-term week has just past in school, and frankly I don't think I did very well. <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( --> Spending not enough time studying and spending too much time on the internet. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> I can make small maps for you all, maybe even help with the storyline. the "cutting and gutting," if you all agree with my approach, should be a team effort. Go team go! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

KA: OK, I was thinking mysefl on the possibility of suggesting another final public beta test myself, heh! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Once I finish fixing some problems with this and properly adding the flechette and discs of repulsion, adding some DM maps that Stryker did some time ago to the package and sorting small problems out I'll be ready to ship it to KDev and you can do the rest <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->, maybe if I finish it all this weekend we can try to do it, if it isn't this weekend we0ll have to wait a bit more, mid-term exams are here again!! <!-- s:x --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mad.gif" alt=":x" title="Mad" /><!-- s:x --> RPG: I think we've got a lot of things to start working on this, my approach would be this one, why don't we finish revamping the original hexen maps, put together a working version of KMod on Vavoom (add RPG elements, leveling system, etc.) and make it like KMod 3?? That would be a good advance on the main project, by that time maybe KA 1.0 will be out and we'll work on the storyline, and details further, that's my two cents, of course <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->. As for objectives and vision of what we want to do with the project, I imagine this project like a well done Strife type-game thingie (you know NPC's to talk, a main quest that needs you to complete small side-quests to advance, a storyline well made, etc.), if we manage to complete this, it'll be enough for me <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> and I know we can do it people! I think we first need to complete the first KA version to make it out and then work further on the RPG project until we see a public beta with some or most of what I commented here working at a stable state (which is easier since we don't have the network code problem in single player <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->).

If I shall ever commence work on RPG <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> I shall wish to have preciselly written TODO list.

There is already one somewhere here, listing a bunch of basic stuff that is needed for the RPG engine, things like 2D inventory (current is 1D), exp gains, advanced monster AI, NPCs, dialogue system, shopping system, quest system etc. Work on these can commence any time as they are 100% part of the RPG engine.

What about battle music? We still implementing "zone" sections, where each section of a map uses different MIDIs (or MP3s, which can fade in and out)? Then again, if the maps are going to be considerably smaller, we probably won't need this feature. As for 2D inventory, I'm assuming the action will halt while the user browses his knapsack? The 1D inventory is good enough if there aren't that many different types of items in the game because you can scroll through them really fast. But then again, if we include zounds of new items, then the 1D inventory may get too long, so 2D would be next solution. But I say the game should only halt itself when the player goes to the main menu, just to add an extra challenge. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> P.S.: Strife-based dialogue system is okay, the only problem I had with it is extreme lack of choice. The bulk of them were just "yes" or "no" dialogue, and even then, about 90% of the time if you say "no" then you stall the game. I think our dialogue system needs to be more complicated, where each option will steer you to a different way to play the game, yet still be possible to win. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

[quote="Firebrand":3cg6bt5a]As for objectives and vision of what we want to do with the project, I imagine this project like a well done Strife type-game thingie (you know NPC's to talk, a main quest that needs you to complete small side-quests to advance, a storyline well made, etc.), if we manage to complete this, it'll be enough for me <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> and I know we can do it people! I know my opinion is insignificant because I'm only a musician here <!-- s:cry: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif" alt=":cry:" title="Crying or Very sad" /><!-- s:cry: -->, but I envisioned this game to be like a Betrayal at Krondor/Elder Scrolls hybrid, perhaps even some Zelda64 influences if I'm not the only Zelda fan here. Though I'll admit I still haven't gone very far in Strife, just getting the first sigil, and I need to finish it first before I can say what would be nice to implement from it.

The last piece of the Sigil is right before the end. You know about the first piece. The second piece shoots out a lightning bolt. It looks like a ball from behind, but it's more like a javelin or something. Rather cool. The third piece shoots out tons of energy balls in a semicircle ahead and out to the side of you. Not very effective for long distances, but devastating close up. The fourth piece is rather lame. It fires a single vertical lightning bolt that homes in on the enemy. It may be powerful, but it's too big to fit through even moderately sizes holes. The full sigil shoots out a lightning bolt like the second piece, but as it travels, the bolt shoots out other bolts ahead and to the side. Quite nice, but it's too bad you'll only be using it on a few enemies. Of course, you can type in LEGO to get each piece and test it for yourself.

Thanks, Ichor. You single-handedly ruined the surprise of the game. <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: -->

Sorry, I just wanted to save you some time in finding out how the Sigil works. I won't spoil anything else about the game though.

It's not so bad, the sigil is just a tiny particle of the game's surprises. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

[quote="The 4th Class":3cmxa3aq]I know my opinion is insignificant because I'm only a musician here <!-- s:cry: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif" alt=":cry:" title="Crying or Very sad" /><!-- s:cry: --> What?! That's not the case <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->. [quote="The 4th Class":3cmxa3aq]I envisioned this game to be like a Betrayal at Krondor/Elder Scrolls hybrid, perhaps even some Zelda64 influences if I'm not the only Zelda fan here. No, you aren't, it's one of my favorite games of all the time (any version of them <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->), we could implement anything that comes to our minds later in the development <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->, what I meant is that it could be the basic aproach for it, heh! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> [quote="The 4th Class":3cmxa3aq]Though I'll admit I still haven't gone very far in Strife, just getting the first sigil, and I need to finish it first before I can say what would be nice to implement from it. Play it completely, it's a good game, even if you don't like it for the gameplay of our RPG <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->.

[quote="Firebrand":2mhhnvoa]RPG: I think we've got a lot of things to start working on this, my approach would be this one, why don't we finish revamping the original hexen maps, put together a working version of KMod on Vavoom (add RPG elements, leveling system, etc.) and make it like KMod 3?? That would be a good advance on the main project, by that time maybe KA 1.0 will be out and we'll work on the storyline, and details further, that's my two cents, of course <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->. ... I think we first need to complete the first KA version to make it out and then work further on the RPG project until we see a public beta with some or most of what I commented here working at a stable state (which is easier since we don't have the network code problem in single player <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->). I agree we must release full KA first, seeing how it's so close to completion. But afterwards we have to decide whether to finish KMOD3, or jump straight into the RPG designing. Personally, SE is long overdue, so I think we should concentrate on that after KA is done. But then again, KMOD3 is also doing nicely as a beta, so revamping it shouldn't be too hard, just fix the bugs complained about in the forums. Although I'm leaning towards sinking our teeth into the RPG (the main reason I joined this team anyway <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->), either way should be good. It depends on the motifs of the team: start what we promised, or finish what we started? <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->

For the RPG development I would divide it in several parts, first I would implement all the things that are already done, use existing new sprites for weapons and enemies, implement the basic RPG element (experience system, new inventory, etc.) and finish revamping the original Hexen maps, while we work on this we can make releases of KMOD 3 using all this. After all this is implemented we can start developing maps and a storyline for the RPG, then work more focused on what we want to do (until we finally complete it <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->). We could even make more divisions of the work if needed <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->. Tha'ts how I would organize development of the project, but I don't know what others think about this.

Well I've told you what I think. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> This reminds me, I remember a now defunct conversion a few years ago about KMOD4. What was up with that? Was it supposed to be KMOD3 with the extra RPG features you mention? (Cuz to me that sounds a bit redundant.)