This design should get rid of the huge slowdowns the old city had and has a more medieval feeling I think. Textures will be modified later on and the upper stories that are sticking out can be removed easily from sections, making some houses different (and also easily allowing windows on upper stories). <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/newstreets.wad">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... treets.wad</a><!-- m --> (you'll need the textures from scatteredevil.wad for proper viewing)

I don't have this wad, in fact I don't even have the proper *.wcf. <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: --> How do you play them? <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: -->

You can get vhexen.wcf from the Vavoom download repository. ScatteredEvil.wad is contained in a number of archives in kdev, e.g. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxdev_old/scatteredevil/se-wad.zip">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... se-wad.zip</a><!-- m -->

In the meantime, I've worked more on the map. Basically it'll be a pretty big medieval city with dozens of streets and hundreds of buildings, with following notable features: - a river going from north to south - on the east side, the docks for small ships and then the city - on the west side, the citadel (HQ fighters) - in the city proper, a town hall, shops, inn etc - a huge cathedral in the middle of the city (HQ clerics) - outside of the town, a little farther away: the tower of the magi (alternatively, it could be another huge building in the city proper) (HQ mages) My plan is for the three HQs to be separate maps than the city map itself. You can only enter one if you are of the right class (or alternatively, you can always enter but can't use some services and can't purchase some stuff). I want the fighter HQ to be the original citadel map from Heretic (e1m5) with modifications to the architecture to make it more 3D and adding a bunch of NPCs and ornaments. Similarly, most of the cathedral (e1m6) map from Heretic could be used as the cleric HQ - or alternatively, a slightly revamped version of the Heresiarch's seminary could be used for this purpose (the story behind the whole trilogy would easily accomodate it, since the Heresiarchs were church leaders in the past, and the seminary would be one of the lost cathedrals). And another slightly upgraded map from either game would be the mage's school/tower (e.g. e3m5, the ophidian lair from Heretic could be a kind of school). The question is of course how crappy the feeling would be this way. The upside is that we would get 3 huge HQs without much map building required. The two alternatives are to either build the 3 HQs from scratch or to have all 3 be just regular city buildings in the main city map.

Ah, I got very excited reading this last post! <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> [quote="RambOrc":1t4hb1ka]In the meantime, I've worked more on the map. Basically it'll be a pretty big medieval city with dozens of streets and hundreds of buildings, with following notable features: - a river going from north to south - on the east side, the docks for small ships and then the city - on the west side, the citadel (HQ fighters) - in the city proper, a town hall, shops, inn etc - a huge cathedral in the middle of the city (HQ clerics) - outside of the town, a little farther away: the tower of the magi (alternatively, it could be another huge building in the city proper) (HQ mages) My plan is for the three HQs to be separate maps than the city map itself. Right. [quote="RambOrc":1t4hb1ka]You can only enter one if you are of the right class (or alternatively, you can always enter but can't use some services and can't purchase some stuff). Personally I prefer alternative version - you can view the place as a tourist, except maybe in certain times of the day, where the buildings are reserved for lectures and worship, etc. [quote="RambOrc":1t4hb1ka]I want the fighter HQ to be the original citadel map from Heretic (e1m5) with modifications to the architecture to make it more 3D and adding a bunch of NPCs and ornaments. Similarly, most of the cathedral (e1m6) map from Heretic could be used as the cleric HQ - or alternatively, a slightly revamped version of the Heresiarch's seminary could be used for this purpose (the story behind the whole trilogy would easily accomodate it, since the Heresiarchs were church leaders in the past, and the seminary would be one of the lost cathedrals). And another slightly upgraded map from either game would be the mage's school/tower (e.g. e3m5, the ophidian lair from Heretic could be a kind of school). Meh, I can see a lot of shortcomings to this. Let's not forget that these maps would have to "fit" inside the general overworld of the greater city. Slapping the citadel, cathedral, and ophedion lair all into one map would make zero sense, but with some major texture editing, and architectural revision, it could work. [quote="RambOrc":1t4hb1ka]The two alternatives are to either build the 3 HQs from scratch or to have all 3 be just regular city buildings in the main city map. Hmm, I think it really depends on how large the HQs themselves are going to be.

What I meant is that you have the city map, on which the three buildings are only marked by the boundaries (you can see the cathedral already on the old version of the map I've uploaded Saturday). When you want to enter one of these buildings, you "use" the closed gate of the building and instead of opening on the city map you'll be transported to the standalone map of the HQ, i.e. there are a total of 4 maps of the city, one the city itself and then the 3 HQs, all separate maps.

I like the separated maps idea, I also agree that we can alter the architecture and textures of them to look different <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->, I haven't yet seen the new town map, I'm already downloading it and I'll give it a go and post my comments ASAP <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->.

I've uploaded the current version of the town map, it's still mostly a concept but bigger and more kinds of features.

I felt the first version of the map a bit closed, it's IMO too filled with alleys, I prefer something a bit more open, but it's still a WIP, so I guess this will change when the final map is done, right? <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Streets can be curved / widened with just a couple of drag & drops.

Oh and BTW those aren't alleys but full-width medieval streets. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

[quote="RambOrc":2qs05fr8]Oh and BTW those aren't alleys but full-width medieval streets. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> You mean those, with mud, shit and pretty ladies pouring their chamber-pot contents on the heads of passing people? <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->

[quote="Crimson Wizard":1esw6vt3][quote="RambOrc":1esw6vt3]Oh and BTW those aren't alleys but full-width medieval streets. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> You mean those, with mud, shit and pretty ladies pouring their chamber-pot contents on the heads of passing people? <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> Yep, there's a lot of romanticization when we think about the middle ages. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

When I was watching "The Lord of The Rings" movie, chapter 3, there was a scene with Gendalf riding along the Minas Tirith streets up to the mountain top (there was one hobbit with him, forgot which one); so I suddenly thought: Oh my, they should have a sewerage system so complex (a city is built on a rock almost vertically)... Second thought: Man, do they HAVE a sewerage system?? ..imagining a tonns of filth flowing down the mountain.... eeeewwwwwwww.... <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->

Getting back on topic. I have played the map, and I am really pleased by the shear size of it (something I've always wanted to incorporate in DR, though sadly I don't think original Hexen can handle maps so large). IMO the overall length of the map is quite suitable for a midieval downtown core, though to be honest I think the streets themselves may be a bit too symmetrical. <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? --> I liked the little curve one of the streets made near the east, I think those should be a lot more abundant. But I really do like the textures. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Is it possible to make the buildings not "touch" the sky? Since Vavoom can handle 3D sectors would it be possible to walk on top of buildings, while also entering them? As bonus points, we could also make the mage tower so tall, that you can see it in the distance, at nearly any point in the map! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> PS: I don't think it's possible to leave the shore by the docks when you go for a swim. Well I was having problems with it at least.

[quote="The 4th Class":2snatv6g] Is it possible to make the buildings not "touch" the sky? Since Vavoom can handle 3D sectors would it be possible to walk on top of buildings, while also entering them? Maybe most complex building could be made as separate maps? [quote="The 4th Class":2snatv6g]As bonus points, we could also make the mage tower so tall, that you can see it in the distance, at nearly any point in the map! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Or, if a large city is divided in parts, this tower may exist only on one of them, and the rest will have it drawn on skybox texture.

@Rambo: When you say you want "hundreds" of buildings... what are you gonna fit in each of them? <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> Mostly just impoverished peasant residence I presume?

I'm thinking realistically, so I want to keep the architecture as simple as possible. Which means most buildings will only differe in the texture put on them and the majority of "houses" will be just dummy walls with texture (it's about the feeling after all). The way I built the streets, any "house" on any street can be picked as having insides, just join a couple of sectors for door and windows and build whatever desired inside. The idea of having a city where you actually do see a lot of it from many different points is what I did with the first city map, which became so slow long before being actually finished that it resulted in 1-2 fps on a 3D graphics card that is still faster than what most PCs are sold with today.

Yes, the engine has a small problem drawing loads of lines that can be seen at the same time, my suggestion would be to make "sections" (i.e. lines drawn to be seen at the same time but separated by a building that gets to the top of the main sector), this way it would be less messy to create a realistic environment, but I'm not sure if it would work as expected <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? --> .

I sank 100+ hours into a town map that can't be used and I want to avoid that the second time, so I'm pretty restrictive in what I build now.

If the first map is still somewhat usable you can always try eliminating all the secondary junk, and maybe replace some two-sided streets with one-sided ones so less visible points are seen at one time. Or maybe replacing some of the buildings with a "column." Oftentimes it's the gritty "details" that can slow down an already complex map. And one of the great techniques of a mapper is being able to create the "feeling" of large by jam-packing a smaller area with as much detail as possible to make it "feel" larger. See the mountain range in my Elven Gathering project for examples. I found that some of the steps on the mountains where producing mad HOM effects, so I simply deleted them, and made the more important steps larger, and it still looks really natural and complex, but with less bugs!