OK, the latest internal test build is on KDev, please check it out and post any bugs you find on it <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->. The direct download link is here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/arena/KArena_10122007.zip">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... 122007.zip</a><!-- m -->

First of all, where's my map? <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( --> Secondly, bots still stuck too much. For example on River of Fire they rather stuck in wall, than fight. Then I think there's bug with Armor, it does not work, and no matter how much armor pts you gather, they all vanish with the first damage.

[quote="Crimson Wizard":30iboowd]First of all, where's my map? <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( --> I'm sorry, I've packaged it all pretty quickly and I forgot your map, I haven't added it to the maps PK3 <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( -->. [quote="Crimson Wizard":30iboowd]Secondly, bots still stuck too much. For example on River of Fire they rather stuck in wall, than fight. I'm still messing with the code, I don't know where else to look for, feel free to make any changes you wish, I'll continue working on it, as ideas flow out of my head, heh! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> [quote="Crimson Wizard":30iboowd]Then I think there's bug with Armor, it does not work, and no matter how much armor pts you gather, they all vanish with the first damage. Works or me TM <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->, can someone else confirm this bug? Does it happens with every weapon? I'm slowly working on the maps and fixing things as I find them, we'll complete KA someday, but I'm working on it slowly ATM, there's real life stuff messing around too <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? --> .

I've been working on the bots and the maps, I've also got a new job (finally <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->), but right now my free time is reduced again, I wanted to add some new things for KA, but I needed to change some things on the main engine, I've done so, and fixed the bots as much as possible, they can't be perfected anymore without actual rewriting of other things (which IMO is not going to happen until the next mayor KA version), what I'll acomplish for the first version is to avoid them getting stuck as frequently, but nothing more, please bear with me on this decision, it's not the best, sure, but if we want to make a release this year it's the best <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> . I'll finish the maps and upload a new internal test version, this will take a bit more time, please be patient ppl, we aren't death at all <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->. If someone wants to take some screenshots of progress and make some news on the main page, feel free to do so, we need to keep interest on the project.

[quote="Firebrand":3jol80n6]I wanted to add some new things for KA, but I needed to change some things on the main engine, What are those? Is this really necessary?

First of all gratz for your new job Firebrand! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Second, I got this latest version and I will test it in LAN over the week, I'm pretty busy too so don't expect much results before the weekend.

I had to add some stuff for the player, particularly, some methods to call when the player is damaged, so bots can reacts to the damage and target the player who shot them. I don't think there was any other way to implement this. I've been working on giving bots different timers when they chase enemies, go for items, etc. this is to make them less stupid when chasing enemies and to make them react to other things surrounding them too <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->. I've also improved their swimming abilities a bit, I've corrected several logic problems in the code, like that which made bots avoid anything that was near to them by their Radius value, which frankly was something really stupid and other things like that, if you want anymore info, check out the latest SVN changes <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->.

You posted this before me and I didin't noticed it, heh! <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> [quote="Col.J.P.":7vmd87ww]First of all gratz for your new job Firebrand! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Thanks! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> [quote="Col.J.P.":7vmd87ww]Second, I got this latest version and I will test it in LAN over the week, I'm pretty busy too so don't expect much results before the weekend. I'll be expecting any bug reports you have <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->.

[quote="Firebrand":2cnsygd0]I had to add some stuff for the player, particularly, some methods to call when the player is damaged, so bots can reacts to the damage and target the player who shot them. I don't think there was any other way to implement this. There is OkayToSwitchTarget method. Or is it the one you added?

No, I have to manually set their enemy because that's how bots work, also, I need to make a timer for reaction, so we can make bots feel more like real players whose screen is tinted red and are unable to see things properly <!-- s:twisted: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /><!-- s:twisted: --> .

Ok, well, maybe this extra method will be useful for RPG as well.

Yep, it might come handy for the RPG <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->, I'll be posting some ideas I've got for monster's AI in the next days.

[quote="Firebrand":3ebgi1q9]You posted this before me and I didin't noticed it, heh! <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> [quote="Col.J.P.":3ebgi1q9]First of all gratz for your new job Firebrand! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Thanks! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> [quote="Col.J.P.":3ebgi1q9]Second, I got this latest version and I will test it in LAN over the week, I'm pretty busy too so don't expect much results before the weekend. I'll be expecting any bug reports you have <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->. I got none so far, only tried deathmatch over LAN with Arena map and 6 bots/ 2 players. But I have complains, adding bots no longer crashes the game but slows the game a lot, I have a breakdown like 45 fps to 14 and sometimes 8 fps, it becomes unplayable. Its not my system I got an old rig, Pentium 4 3,0c Ghz, 2 gigs of DDR400 RAM and a Geforce 7800 GS. There is no reason for those slowdowns, they start when you add the 5th bot and continues till unplayability, netcode maybe? Everything else seems fine, I need more time, though.

It could be related to the netcode, anyway, I'll check the bot's code, there are some functions that still are a mess and could cause this, also, we need to take into account that bots do a lot of things in their tick method (this is where they ask the engine to update themselves as actors <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->, I'll tweak a bit on the code and see what can be done. As for no bugs until now.... YAY!!! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> <!-- s\:D/ --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_dance.gif" alt="\:D/" title="Dancing" /><!-- s\:D/ -->

This is actually a bit worrying, if we enhance monster AI, what happens if we have 50 monsters at once? Enormous slowdown like with bots?

I noticed this slowdown before, while adding bots, but now it is much worse, its like ur playing ok with 4 bots, add more 2 and get a slide show. The bots run into walls a lot and stay there runing still, they always did, can't you imprint a little more collision detection? just asking...

Nope, because monsters work differently, monsters already have defined methods for chasing for other actors, moving around the world, colission detection, physics, etc. Bots on the other hand, should work as players, which makes their AI and code MORE complex game wise, since we should respect the player's structure when planning how they'll work and we need to make them client friendly too, monsters don't need all of the stuff bots do, making things faster and easier to implement. We'll have to use said monster methods as base, and enhance them as needed, as I mentioned some time ago, there's a doom port which has a base for this enhancements (Marine's Best Friend, MBF for short), the source code is freely available, I already made some tests on my part to create duplicates of some methods and it works quite well (no slowdowns at all), the only noticeable side effect is in monster's behaviour, but this is something we'll have to face as it comes IMO <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->, we'll have to test and discard things that could alter the game in negative ways.

[quote="RambOrc":3bcf9d67]This is actually a bit worrying, if we enhance monster AI, what happens if we have 50 monsters at once? Enormous slowdown like with bots? I tested my path building code on Doom2 map 02 (undergrounds?) with lots of path nodes put all over the map, and I noticed only rare slight delays. (However, I've got fast machine,..) Monster behavior has rather simple code, there could be a slowdown in case a lots of monsters begin to build a complex route to target at one time, but I already have a plan to be implemented in case it will cause trouble; I think I mentioned it earlier, - it is defining groups and leaders: while only leaders seek accurate paths to target, other group members follow leader.

[quote="Col.J.P.":o4xrptab]I noticed this slowdown before, while adding bots, but now it is much worse, its like ur playing ok with 4 bots, add more 2 and get a slide show. The bots run into walls a lot and stay there runing still, they always did, can't you imprint a little more collision detection? just asking... Haven't read this post, heh! <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> The way bots work now it's really messy, changing something in their search methods for small it can be can have a different side effects, I'm still looking for the part of code that makes them stay on walls, but I'm unable to find it yet <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( -->, and even when this gets fixed, there's a chance this can still happen <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? --> , it doesn't has an easy solution IMO.

[quote="Crimson Wizard":2770cixh]I already have a plan to be implemented in case it will cause trouble; I think I mentioned it earlier, - it is defining groups and leaders: while only leaders seek accurate paths to target, other group members follow leader. That actually sounds cool, not just as a workaround but also as a feature - I still have those plans for a huge battle in a plains where the player and two bots (the other two classes) together fight hundreds of monsters.

I'm getting errors all the time from Vavoom for Windows and not only: --------------------------- Error --------------------------- Reference not set to an instance of an object Stack trace: (linespec.Weapon.A_Lower) <- RunFunction <- (linespec.Weapon.A_Lower 5) <- VObject::ExecuteFunction <- (linespec.Weapon.A_Lower) <- VBasePlayer::SetViewState <- RunFunction <- (engine.BasePlayer.AdvanceViewStates 0) <- RunFunction <- (linespec.PlayerEx.MovePsprites 2) <- RunFunction <- (svprogs.Player.MovePsprites 86) <- RunFunction <- (svprogs.Player.DeathPlayerTick 20) <- RunFunction <- (svprogs.Player.PlayerTick 172) <- VObject::ExecuteFunction <- (svprogs.Player.PlayerTick) <- SV_RunClients <- SV_Ticker <- ServerFrame <- Host_Frame --------------------------- OK --------------------------- Its getting ugly, you can't play more than 10 mins without one of these... <!-- s:cry: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif" alt=":cry:" title="Crying or Very sad" /><!-- s:cry: -->

I've got you some cool news! I've already properly fixed this as reported in the Vavoom forums now <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->, so the next internal build will have this fixed <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->. I've also optimized the bots code to make it work faster, in my computer I can now play at 26 - 45 FPS in most maps, which is a nice mark IMO <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> .

Nice, bring it on! Makes no sense to continue to test this version if you have a better one <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

There's one moment on my map "House of Asp" - when you enter teleporter (looks like warp portal); I had crashes there sometimes. Can you test that, J.P.?

Yes, I can confirm the crash myself, but I'm not sure why it happens, but I think it's because of the facts that a certain static lightning there is too big, but I could be wrong <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->, I'll send the error to Janis so he can examine it too <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->. There's a new beta up on KDev Col.J.P., please check it out, it includes the latest fixes and optimizations to the code <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->. Offtopic: Was it really a month since the last internal build? It was labeled 10/12/2007, heh!

[quote="Crimson Wizard":1ievvp9n]There's one moment on my map "House of Asp" - when you enter teleporter (looks like warp portal); I had crashes there sometimes. Can you test that, J.P.? I can't find your map, where is it? <!-- s:shock: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif" alt=":shock:" title="Shocked" /><!-- s:shock: --> via console, typing map house of asp doesn't work and it won't show in the UI! @Firebrand downloading the zip right now, I let you know how it goes, need at least another week, k?

Sure, no problem <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->. CW's map is in the version you are just downloading <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->, it should appear in the list of maps now.

The map is awesome, really, and there was no problem with the bots only with the portal: --------------------------- Error --------------------------- Division by 0 Stack trace: (linespec.EntityEx.AimLineAttack) <- RunFunction <- (linespec.EntityEx.AimLineAttack 350) <- RunFunction <- (svprogs.Player.UpdateTargetInfo 40) <- RunFunction <- (svprogs.Player.PlayerTick 160) <- VObject::ExecuteFunction <- (svprogs.Player.PlayerTick) <- SV_RunClients <- SV_Ticker <- ServerFrame <- Host_Frame --------------------------- OK --------------------------- Where does it lead to?

I don't know, but I am gonna find out.

What? That's not the error I've got when playing CW's map, it was something about the renderer. <!-- s:-s --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_eh.gif" alt=":-s" title="Eh?" /><!-- s:-s -->

What the hell is this? - [img:3ix4u44b]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/arena/ka_11112007_bug.jpg[/img:3ix4u44b] [img:3ix4u44b]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/arena/ka_11112007_bug2.jpg[/img:3ix4u44b]

Also, I still feel that weapons are too powerful. Is it only me, who notice this? Marine, for example, currently can kill a bot by 2 shotgun shots.

[quote="Crimson Wizard":a7r4udk7]What the hell is this? Those are the new incomplete menus implementations, I'm about to fix those, it's a relative easy thing to change <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->. As for weapons, I think they are very balanced already, but that's my opinion.

Wait a second ppl, about balance of weapons, you're making the same mistake most developers made all this years: since you guys can play it nicely you automatically assume everybody else does it too. never trust a seasoned player as a beta tester, the game will always be too easy to get, too easy to finish, too easy to whatever...too easy to kill with two shots! I believe it is ok, did you guys ever released a public beta? My son's puter PSU died last week, I got a new 500W one and fried the motherboard, so I'm changing mobo's right now and we're unable to test KA on LAN. The single player seems to work just fine, aside from the teleporter error on CW's map. no more bot errors <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

Ouch! Good luck with your new mobo <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->, I remember I fried a mobo myself too, the second time I opened my computer's case <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( -->, I connected something wrongly and it just burned out <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> . Anyway, it's cool to hear that you enjoy the single player mode <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->, I've been working on KA for a good time this week, I'll have a new internal build ready during the next week, so stay tuned for it, it'll have some interesting stuff added, I promise <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> .

Yep it's important that the single player experience (i.e. vs bots) is good, since in the vast majority of cases that's the only one people can play with KA.

[quote="RambOrc":rhe17fpv]Yep it's important that the single player experience (i.e. vs bots) is good, since in the vast majority of cases that's the only one people can play with KA. That's a tough one, beside getting stuck facing walls, I don't find any other problem with bots. My LAN is working again, the mobo was not fried, only the PSU needed a replacement, thank the gods! I still have occasional lock ups and freezes, but I'm not certain its a KA issue. I think its time to release a beta <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

[quote="Col.J.P.":2wdqpl81]beside getting stuck facing walls, I don't find any other problem with bots. No I will finally look into what's going on there. This behavior is quite disturbing and, frankly, I cannot imagine how algorythm could be written that allows that <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( -->.

OK, i've been coding a simple state and action system, so bots now have both a state (offense, defense, return to base) and action (going for flag, defending flag, go scoring) for CTF (and any other team based gameplay mode), this will prioritize tasks the bot should do, so they won't chase things in the same conventional way, so there are things that the bot will completely ignore or give less priority, I'm still testing this out, it's still very basic, but I hope things will change soon.

Regarding internal 2008-06-18 - I cannot make it run, at all. Vavoom crashes with following:

ERROR: Script error, "animdefs" line 11: Name is too long 

BTW, Bot Generator is good. BUT. What is the purpose of putting it in game release while its usage require full progs recompilation? How common users are supposed to use it?

If you have any zip utils, open the data.pk3 and fix the animdefs in it, I've fixed this error myself in my local copy, but I can't upload anything at the moment <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc10.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( -->. I'm still working on KA bots for CTF, but progress has been slow <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->.