[color=grey:1bv91dmz]Milestone 1: Concept This milestone has been completed with the creation of the concept document.[/color:1bv91dmz] [color=grey:1bv91dmz]Milestone 2: Planning Milestones List Modules List Setting up all Modules in Taskfreak[/color:1bv91dmz] [color=grey:1bv91dmz]Milestone 3: Alpha Basic RPG features like experience and leveling Travel map with at least 4 waypoints At least two town maps At least one hub of dungeon maps NPCs with simple conversations Fighter weapon system[/color:1bv91dmz] [color=grey:1bv91dmz]Milestone 4: First Beta Includes most of the main storyline with nearly 40 dungeon maps and over 50 town maps (most town maps placeholders) New monsters Finalized travel map and system Inventory[/color:1bv91dmz] Milestone 5: Second Beta NPCs with quests Shopping system Mage and Cleric spellbook systems Number of weapons, spells, maps, monsters etc., the whole world size should approach that of the final product. Milestone 6: Third Beta (RC testing) A cohesive game in which all major features can be tested and feedback can be given not only on playability but also overall feel of the game. Should have everything the final product is intended to have, is mostly so more testers can give feedback for fixing bugs and tuning things. Only major features missing would be cutscenes (if the final release has any) and detailed documentation/SDK. Milestone 7: Public Release The final 1.0 product.

Milestones finished are greyed out so it's clearly visible with one look where the project currently stands. The modules will be implemented in Taskfreak. The document detailing all modules can be found here in editable format <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/ScatteredEvil/documents/krpg_modules.odt">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... odules.odt</a><!-- m --> and in portable format <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/ScatteredEvil/documents/krpg_modules.pdf">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... odules.pdf</a><!-- m --> . Once the document has been updated with feedback through the team and the final module list set up in Taskfreak, Milestone 2 has been reached as well.

[quote="RambOrc":2f4twnlc] Milestone 3: Internal Alpha Basic RPG features like experience and leveling Travel map with at least 5 waypoints At least two town maps At least three hubs of dungeon maps Do we have some sort of concept for what these map waypoints / towns / dungeon hubs should look like?

The central city can be probably included regardless of how complete it is, since it's an internal test and so the bigger the map the better to test features. The second town map could be the one you are working on. There already are a number of finished maps and even hubs for KRPG, for the Alpha all they need is adding KRPG specific objects to them. For the travel map, you can just use the ugly one currently in the concept document, later on there will be a much prettier one. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> The geography will significantly change too, to include a much larger area with not just one valley but many valleys/mountain ranges/deserts/etc.

Sorry for derailing the thread, I've implemented the main modules listed on the files Ramborc posted, Taskfreak can't handle the submodules as it works now, but I think I could try to add the submodule stuff to it, it might take me 2 weeks or something like that, but I don't really know if it would help or not, so what do you think about it?

[quote="Firebrand":1557kqmr]I've implemented the main modules listed on the files Ramborc posted, Taskfreak can't handle the submodules as it works now, but I think I could try to add the submodule stuff to it, it might take me 2 weeks or something like that, but I don't really know if it would help or not, so what do you think about it? Actually I do not understand what are these submodules at all. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> And I can't notice any changes to TaskFreak, so I cannot comprehend what is it you are doing. Why do you need these "submodules" anyway?

The reason is <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/ScatteredEvil/documents/krpg_modules.pdf">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... odules.pdf</a><!-- m --> I guess. At any rate, another possibility would be to use the "projects" for the main modules, e.g. "KRPG_Programming" and "KRPG_Audio" instead of "KRPG".

[quote="RambOrc":zm02ja1l]At any rate, another possibility would be to use the "projects" for the main modules, e.g. "KRPG_Programming" and "KRPG_Audio" instead of "KRPG". There's such thing as "Context" in Task Freak, which already has these options - "Programming", "Audio" etc. Each task has Project and Context definitions.

Exactly, but if you look at the module list in the document I linked, you will see we need triple categorizing and taskfreak only offers double, hence my suggestion.

Now the problem is more clear, the easiest (and fastest) solution would be to go with Ramborc's suggestion, the second choice (slowest) is to add a third category to the TaskFreak system (which would require coding changes on it <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc4.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->). I would go with whatever you think is the best solution <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->.

Well, RambOrc's suggestion does not look bad, however I am still not sure why we really need this <!-- s#-o --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/eusa_doh.gif" alt="#-o" title="d'oh!" /><!-- s#-o --> . Can you give me an example of TODO item wich would require both module and submodule categories?

Just about every single one. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Otherwise you wouldn't know what the todo is for (or would have to explicitly state the project in the todo). I.e. if you only use submodule task, then if a todo says "add music5 to map03 instead of music3" you will know it's about managing music for the project but you wouldn't know whether ka or krpg or tcs.

Todo's are added and categorized for projects already <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->, so when adding a new todo, you simply would have to select KRPG from the project selection menu <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->. I think submodules are necessary just to avoid having to make very long task descriptions and to have a tighter organization of tasks, but they aren't imperative IMO, have you looked at the way the very least tasks there are organized Ramborc? <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

uh... whatever. <!-- sorccrazy2 --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orccrazy2.gif" alt="orccrazy2" title="orccrazy2" /><!-- sorccrazy2 -->

LOL whatever works best for you works best for me. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

Then Milestone 2 has been reached, I would suggest everyone to review the 3rd Milestone and add any tasks you think you can do for reaching it to TaskFreak, so that we have an idea of what's needed for development of KRPG <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->.

Well, Travel map "engine" and conversations are primaily my tasks. By the way, I still do not have any feedback regarding KRPG map builder <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->. Perhaps I will add normal help file to that app in following days. Beyond code, maps are very important. In fact, I feel a bit worried about that, since we do not have any dedicated mappers around for some time. As for alpha maps compilation we have on kdev, frankly saying some of these maps are weak even for vanilla Hexen; I guess we may use them as a base, but still lots of editing needed.

If we have 15-20 good maps, that should suffice for the main storyline. The additional dungeons can be ugly/crappy maps or not even included in 1.0, but instead built by the community later on and added by us (e.g. 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 might all include new dungeons and sidequests to discover while replaying the game's main storyline, the same way as KA 1.1, 1.2 etc will add new maps and/or game modes). Another option, in some ways riskier, would be to "blow all our wad" right away, making the 1.0 release only contain part of the story but using up all the currently existing good maps for it and all currently existing acceptable maps as sidequest optional dungeons. This would make the game feel more complete, but it would end pretty quick and we would depend on an active community springing up from the ground to create a lot of high quality maps so we can continue the story. As for the map builder, I tested it back then but had difficulties understanding it completely, especially that I can't see the end result in-game.

That's why I mentioned that we would have to finish the code base as much as possible before building maps, so that we could dedicate our efforts fully on that task. Another option would be to announce that we are looking for mappers on our front page (and maybe even some other communities forums), but frankly speaking, the last time we did that, the response from the community was mostly null. Who knows, maybe this time we might have better luck... it's worth a try IMO <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->.

Posting a news that we are looking for mappers is always good, though I remember the last time we did that and people were asking for exact specifications on their maps. So it might make more sense to first finish the map of the part of the continent you can travel around in SE (which is also the travel map), that way we would have all locations pinpointed and point to a place on it and tell people "build this location".

I have been thinking about the feasibility of releasing SE with only part of the storyline implemented and the rest coming later. As mentioned before, it has a great risk if we use all the good maps on the early parts of the story: there might not be enough new good maps in any reasonable time frame to proceed. There is a very important requirement for this: we need to design a savegame system that will remain 100% compatible if we add more maps/monsters/items/etc to SE in later releases. This is extremely important since with such a stepwise release people would have a savegame of a say lvl 31 character they want to continue playing once the next batch of maps and storyline chapters are released. The advantages would be that we could get out a fully functioning game pretty fast, without the need to have e.g. the two big city maps ready to go yet (not sure about CW's but mine still needs a LOT of work), since it's the early story a few villages would suffice (based on my experiences a small village could be built from scratch in a day or so). 2-3 of the good hubs we have at our disposal could be reworked for the eary chapters of the story, with maybe half a dozen extra dungeon maps thrown in for additional locations. If we would go with the stepwise release of story and world, this collection could be the base not only for the alpha, but also the beta and the first public release, i.e. the betas would consist of tweaking only, not expanding the stuff greatly. I am not sure whether this would be better or worse than releasing the game only once it has all the 50-100 maps etc. Your thoughts? p.s. This wouldn't change the milestones and modules, only the size of the modules for the initial release. It would also mean repeating milestones 4, 6 and 7 for every subsequent release with new maps and further story chapters.

[quote="RambOrc":mr0putd5]I have been thinking about the feasibility of releasing SE with only part of the storyline implemented and the rest coming later. <...> I am not sure whether this would be better or worse than releasing the game only once it has all the 50-100 maps etc. Your thoughts? It's really difficult to make an opinion about this without having already working internal build featuring logical sequence of maps. I mean, I even do not know yet how the game progression will look like. Gameplay technique changed alot from the days of original Hexen, IMO nowadays players tend to play faster and more aggressively then before, since everyone have experience of fast & furious games (I cannot say for all people around here, but I remember mid-90-ies, when we played Doom & Hexen, it was all about caution, because 3d games themselves were quite new for people and made thrilling sensation; you never knew what awaits beyond next corner). So, basically, number of maps, their sizes and difficulty (amount of monsters etc) must depend on how fast common moden player can beat them. It would be a shame to make a game which can be passed in couple of hours without leaving any serious impression. [quote="RambOrc":mr0putd5] There is a very important requirement for this: we need to design a savegame system that will remain 100% compatible if we add more maps/monsters/items/etc to SE in later releases. This is extremely important since with such a stepwise release people would have a savegame of a say lvl 31 character they want to continue playing once the next batch of maps and storyline chapters are released. Now, *this* is a question! <!-- s:idea: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_idea.gif" alt=":idea:" title="Idea" /><!-- s:idea: --> Introducing new types of objects (monsters, items and other) should not be a problem, since AFAIK classes of objects are not registered in savegame. There's a chance that *new* maps can be added without problems, because (I believe so) engine saves only maps that were already visited and thus does not save any restrictions or limits to maps count. However, making changes to old maps could be very risky. And finally, possibility to add new quests is under question for now, mainly because quest system is not complete yet (well.... rather only started <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->), but there's chance it could be done the way it will allow addons. I will investigate engine code and make some tests to know where I am right and where I am wrong.

Compatibility on savegames can't be assured, because the engine will continue to grow with development and Vavoom doesn't has compatibility to older versions. As for doing subsequent releases, I think it could work, but we need to make sure things will go smooth as development progresses (both for users and for us), because we could get to a point where maintaining compatibility and developing new things could become an obstacle or users would have to restart their games after a certain release.

Actually, the map alteration part should be much less problematic, we could simply add to the beginning of the instruction that the player has to save the game in one of the following villages, otherwise the savegame might crash after the upgrade. Worst case scenario for a player would be to have to reinstall the old version of the game, copy the savegames there, start up the game, move the character to one of the specified villages, save game again, quit, upgrade. We could even go as far as wipe all save data except for the current map (i.e. monsters would be back in previously cleared dungeons, except for storyline dungeons which would be empty). Things like quest system, inventory, buying/selling, conversations would be of course all finished before the first public release since they are all basic elements of the game. From the design guide:

(...) many hubs in the game will have a quick punchthrough path that allows the player to skip most of the exploration and fights and advance quicker in the main storyline. Since it is possible to travel back to previous maps of a hub, the player can return to easier areas any time to boost levels and acquire money for better equipment, or tackle difficult quests when he is stronger. It is also possible to skip most maps/hubs in the game. The only ones required to complete at all are those that contain an important milestone to advance the main storyline.

Imagine playing the original Hexen with a fighter that does only 1/4 of the damage he did in the original game (i.e. needing 12 instead of 3 hits with his fists to kill an Ettin) and has a maximum of 25 HP and you should get a pretty good image of what it means to use the shortcuts instead of leveling up by doing all the monsters in the rest of the hub before the boss. The extremely hardcore will be able to take this shortcut, but the average player not so much. This also gives a very strong RPG vein to the game, most RPGs are of the type "I can't beat this encounter now, let's go to somewhere else, get better weapons and more experience then come back when it's easier". Also, in my experience more important than the actual length is replayability. I played some of the orginal Heretic and DOOM maps probably over a hundred times because they were really fun. In Hexen, the number of times I played through the whole game was maybe 10-20 times because I was a Hexen freak, but still much less than Heretic where I could pick my favorite maps and play them one by one (original DOOM and Heretic maps are all designed in a way that you can warp there and play normally w/o cheats because you get several weapons in every map). In Half-Life, I played the game through once, then when I tried to play it a second time I stopped pretty quick. So while playing through Half-Life took maybe 15-20 hours, it's 1x20 hours = 20 hours total, whereas while it maybe took only 10 hours to play through Heretic, it's 50x10 = 500 hours total play that was enjoyable. Despite the RPG and the big world and travel, KRPG should be more like Heretic due to the shortcuts in the story hubs and all other dungeons being completely optional. That means except for a few key maps and fights (which should be very well done so they don't feel repetitive/ugly), every other part of the game one can pick every single time differently. This should help achieve a better ratio of development hours to gameplay hours. I would guess in a game like Heretic for 100 hours spent in development, the game could be played for one hour or something like that, whereas in a Half-Life 2 for example it was probably more like 10'000 hours of development for one hour of gameplay.

[quote="Firebrand":twmwpy6n]Compatibility on savegames can't be assured, because the engine will continue to grow with development and Vavoom doesn't has compatibility to older versions. As for doing subsequent releases, I think it could work, but we need to make sure things will go smooth as development progresses (both for users and for us), because we could get to a point where maintaining compatibility and developing new things could become an obstacle or users would have to restart their games after a certain release. In that case, we could look into having an import/export function that can read the inventory, experience etc that is character specific. The game state itself could be simply done as suggested above, i.e. all optional sidequest dungeons in initial state, all storyline hubs wiped clean. For the import, the utility would only have to read the quest state from the old savegame to make sure the player reached all the story milestones required. Also, if there are no more than 2-3 releases total until the storyline is complete, we could always tell people to start anew every time. <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc4.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->

[quote="Firebrand":tiq8vg8n]Compatibility on savegames can't be assured, because the engine will continue to grow with development and Vavoom doesn't has compatibility to older versions. Not only that, but savegame content may change with almost any progs alteration that adds new variables to game classes. However, I wouldn't say this is a critical problem. Since engine code is open source we can write savegame converter. Savegame routine is rather straightforward, and file structure is split into sections for each game/level aspect (as far as I can see); thus it is possible to tweak one section leaving others as is. I wouldn't say it is easy, but it's possible. Anyway, RambOrcs proposal about exporting/importing character/quest state sounds like a good idea. BTW, I made a quick test; if I put a new *item* on map where I saved my game and reload the game, it *will* load, but there will be no new item. If I change map itslef, game will stuck loading forever.

I think creating a character export/import feature doesn't sounds bad, and I don't think it's too difficult, but we will have to try and see what happens <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->.

In the meantime, I'll throw together a small village map and measure the effective time it takes to create it.

[quote="RambOrc":qej1zm7v]In the meantime, I'll throw together a small village map and measure the effective time it takes to create it. The question is, what these towns/villages are supposed to contain? For example, if I am going to finish my town map and make it normal town map (not just combat map), which places of interest should I put there?

If we simplify the selling part of shopping in that every vendor buys every item you might find and pays the same for it (prices modified by charisma but independent of what town you are in), then there is nothing that "must" be placed into a town map except one vendor of any kind so the player can unload his inventory at any settlement. The bigger a town, the more specialty shops (armor, weapons, spell scrolls etc) can be added. The only other type of NPC that has game influencing capabilities is the questgiver, but there doesn't have to be (but of course is allowed to) a quest giver in every single village, and at the same time there is no limit on the number of quest givers and/or shopkeepers in any village/town. Sure there are a bunch of specific NPCs like innkeeper, librarian, bankier, watchman, baker, farmer etc, but these NPCs are there for flavor/feeling, not to influence gameplay.

I forward the motion to call Milestone 4 "first public beta" henceforward (same content, only difference that it's available for people outside the devteam).

I agree, I'll work on the artistic version of the world map and upload it ASAP, then I'll get back to the coding part, fixing the RPG elements as we discussed.

Updated the first post to reflect the fact that Milestone 3 has been successfully reached.

Currently it looks like MS4 will contain more on the mapping (i.e. nearly all dungeon maps of the storyline) but less on the programming front (Shopping system as well as Mage and Cleric spellbook systems are a question mark at this time).

Updated the first post to reflect the release of MS4.