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Korax SE design guide

Sat, 01 Sep 2007 09:50:17

RambOrc

Heh I didn't even remember there was such a detailed one... I found the Korax SE design guide from 2003. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/Scattered_Evil_Design_Guide_2003-04-07.pdf">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... -04-07.pdf</a><!-- m -->
Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:22:20

RambOrc

I've also found the map compilation which should include nearly all (maybe even all) maps listed in the design guide. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/koraxrpg/se-maps_alpha_compilation.zip">http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev ... lation.zip</a><!-- m --> Upon reading the guide, to me it doesn't sound so bad, so I'd appreciate if you guys would check out the maps and give a feedback how far we could use the original map/story concept.
Sat, 01 Sep 2007 12:56:18

Crimson Wizard

I remember I read this long time ago. But I never knew there are so many maps already.
Sun, 02 Sep 2007 14:45:43

The 4th Class

Regarding hub structure, I think it is a good idea to have the city be the core focal point of the hub, but is it necessary for the focal point of EVERY hub to be a city? <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? --> Maybe the focal point of one could be a barren wasteland, or maybe some temple out in the wilderness, just to add some diversity. Also, regarding the map list you've given us... does this mean all maps for SE are finished? Or how much of these are obsolete/relevant?
Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:04:59

Firebrand

I agree with 4th Class, we could vary the focal point of each hub depending on the story IMO. As for maps, these maps are done for the original game, we'll need to change them to adapt them to the story and difficulty, of course we'll have to add some specific Vavoom effects too IMO <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->.
Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:41:16

RambOrc

The map system laid out in this SE concept is not the one I wrote in the new Korax RPG, i.e. if we take this system we allow the player to freely move between all maps already accessible, i.e. maps from the early game can be revisited any time. The big question is how this would influence save game size, save game complexity, save and load times etc.
Tue, 04 Sep 2007 01:09:59

The 4th Class

I read over the storyline again, and I officially like it. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> While it's not as in-depth and epic as most other RPGs I love to pieces, I think it suits what we're aiming for really well, which is a FPS-RPG crossbreeder. Something simple but exciting. Now we just gotta stuff it with filler side-quests that SEEM related to the main quest but really can just give you bonus items. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Though, to be honest, I am not a big fan of one-dimensional evil enemies. One of the best things about the Betrayal at Krondor game, is that you occasionally enter the minds of the "villain," and see that he is not just an evil man corrupt for domination, but is in fact a rational being that feels that he is a liberator, or a freedom fighter standing up against an unjust empire. So, instead of the game being good vs. evil, you instead have a game where there are two opposing forces, both of which believe themselves to be good. (like the Capitalism vs. Communism ideology of the Cold War)
Tue, 04 Sep 2007 08:17:06

RambOrc

Well the Serpent Riders are not nice in any way. <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->
Tue, 04 Sep 2007 08:23:05

Crimson Wizard

An idea of Easter Egg: in the darkest tomb player finds a Korax'es Diary. "My dear Diary, I am so lone and unhappy. Nobody loves me at all, only you, my friend, I may share my thoughts with..."
Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:13:55

RambOrc

LOL we want TONS of easter eggs of course. I have a list of some already on paper (one of these days I'll have to type up the large collection of ideas, cnocepts etc I have on paper).
Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:27:44

The 4th Class

O yes, and regarding us using third party authors' maps as basing to build our own, instead of making our own from scratch. Are the fans gonna be told about this? I think we should keep it a secret. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->
Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:52:39

RambOrc

We can't, that'd go against the license terms of those maps (i.e. they can be reused and modified in any way but the original author has to be given credit).
Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:02:27

Firebrand

And I don't see why it would be wrong, since we'll make them fit the story and use advanced engine features, besides we'll be adding some content of our own too <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->.
Wed, 05 Sep 2007 17:36:17

The 4th Class

Well I've managed to play some of the wads, I'll give a brief review of the ones I've played so far: AVATAR01 - I didn't like it that much. Map design is a too plain, and the traps and puzzles aren't very inspiring. Definitely a beginner's map, and we can do better! BADLAND - Design is pretty nice on this one, this is what I talked about earlier regarding open spaces in a compact area, it still feels wide but doesn't overstretch the map and waste space. CASTLE - This one is really good! Complex design, a nice challenge from the enemies, and I think it can really nicely in our project! CEREN01 - Of all the maps I've tried so far, this one is my favourite. The layout is perfect, atmosphere is spooky but you just keep wanting to play it through. I loved the idea of the fortress floating high in the clouds. If you don't mind, I recommend we remove the cliff ledge outside altogether, and instead just have this giant fortress up in the sky, maybe expanded a bit to fit more things. This could be a nice final level, IMO. CHAOSRSH - Pass. Very hard, but I didn't find it very fun at all. CHUXEN - Overall this seems like a well-thought out hub (though the very last level needs more work IMO). Great diversity in the maps, very challenging but the design is so tight that you just can't stop playing it! I think my favourite map in this bunch is the swamp, nice atmosphere and I think we need a swamp town anyways? <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> Everybody, what do you think about these maps? <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->
Wed, 05 Sep 2007 17:54:48

Ichor

A couple more good maps to try are centromere (circular city, but the hub is incomplete) and riverwood, which is a really nice town map. I'm even using a little bit of its architecture in one of my maps.
Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:07:20

RambOrc

Do you have a download link for those?
Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:38:55
Wed, 05 Sep 2007 20:31:13

RambOrc

I've sorted the maps from the se compilation inte a couple of categories. Part of the main storyline w/o question: - fortress - chuxen (several maps) - e1m1 (unfinished map but great architecture) - octarena deathmatch maps that could be used as boss maps (some part of the main storyline, some not): - hexsoul - agility - pddm3 - hades good single maps, these should be places you visit during the main storyline: - gnosis - hxcod1 - swamp ledges - purpdth1 - sewers - out weak single maps, these should be optional dungeons: - chaosrsh - labyh - hexquake 1-3 - hxtera - badland weak hubs, for side stories/quests: - krull - necros other maps: - hxthebar: not outstanding, but the idea of a bar out in the desert is in a lot of cool movies and it has a certain something to it, there should be at least on such place in SE too
Thu, 06 Sep 2007 08:47:24

Crimson Wizard

I have several maps that I did for my mod long ago. Since it is most possible that I will never return to it, I have a bad feeling that they may be lost in time unused <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Most of them are playable without Vavoom even (not to mention my progs), since those times I didn't use any of the Vavoom design features (3d floors and such). Only problem is that they use a lot of extra textures - from Heretic, and a number of Doom ones, plus some modified ones. I think that there can be found very good and atmospheric places on them. And even one logical puzzle (rather complex one), though its implementation was not so good (but this may be changed). Puzzle consists of moving 3 polyobjects out of the way, those polys were controlled by 6 switches, each of which changed their relative positions in some way; for example switch 1 moves poly #1 to the left 1 step and poly #3 - 2 steps to the right; switch 2 moved poly #1 to the right 1 step and poly #2- 1 step to the left, and so on. Here are some shots I made, unfortunately they do not show all the good places there, hopefully you may see a general idea. [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0001.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0016.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0017.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0018.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0002.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0020.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0021.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0004.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0015.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0019.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0006.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0007.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0008.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0010.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0011.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] [img:nnbsqytf]http://downloads.orcishweb.com/koraxdev/crimson/uh_re/shot0012.jpg[/img:nnbsqytf] I will need some time to make a normal package, removing all uneeded textures from graphics wad I used, and then I'll upload them to kdev for you to see them in game. If you wish, you may download my mod itself with all the maps and graphics data from here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.shadowweaver.narod.ru/unheir/unheir.htm">http://www.shadowweaver.narod.ru/unheir/unheir.htm</a><!-- m --> But I must warn it requires Vavoom version 1.19.1.
Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:19:03

RambOrc

Using a couple of Heretic textures is not a problem, as long as they are not the very obvious ones. Using textures from DOOM is out though. If you would be willing, you could rework the maps, replacing DOOM textures and Heretic monsters with Hexen material. The good thing about the SE concept with the travel map is that we can add any number of dungeons, since the world is not interconnected in 3D. And due to the way how travel works, a lot of them can be half-hidden, i.e. they are difficult to find unless you explore a lot in travel mode. Also, anything that is not part of the main storyline can have its own little story in the Hexen world, giving authors a lot of freedom. As for the 3D floors, slopes etc. don't worry, it's not a must, we'll add them to existing maps where they make sense and enhance things (the most obvious cases are the 3D sparkling steps in maps made for the original Hexen). KoraxRPG is not about being flashy, I mean no matter what we do it will look nowhere similar to a UT 2004.
Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:15:27

Crimson Wizard

Well, perhaps I would do remakes for my maps anyway, because I do like 3d features much <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> I will only take overall map idea and good pieces from it.
Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:44:09

The 4th Class

Lucas likes the screenshots <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Rambo do you mind if I further critique the rest of the maps in the zip folder? Or would you rather I concentrate just on the "SE compilation" you gave a little earlier? (Or would you rather I stop talking? <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: -->)
Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:51:22

RambOrc

The more the maps get reviewed the better.
Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:01:37

Crimson Wizard

Speaking of my own map/quest ideas - I have planned 3 quests for now, which may be either side-quests or parts of the main quest (check out the 2nd below). 1. Firstly, in my opinion, the UH map most suitable for SE (at its current state) is the one with the Elven Tomb (screenshots 6,7). It's unfinished, yet could be used almost "as is" (I wish to enhance it though). In my mod it was supposed to represent a sort of elven pocket-world in alternate dimension, where they kept restless spirits of their criminals (and hid some treasure); if this concept is kept in general, it could be connected in SE world easily. 2. The map I shown you earlier, which I call "House of Asp", is a netmatch map, but can be easily extended to single player map or a hub even. I am thinking about "Order of Asp" quest; imagine a separate community of Chaos worshippers, that build their hidden base right in the Volcano... There, surrounded by the heat of lava flows, they breed new generation of fire-breathing serpents... or wyverns, or dragons, or some other terrific monsters. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> 3. I also have an idea of what looks like another one generic "beat-the bad-guy" side-quest about the child-kidnapper-witch, who lives in the barrens. Player have to search for her hut in the most deserted areas, then, when hut is found, he/she finds out that the witch is performing some wicked ritual in order to summon demons from Afterlife and perform revenge against her former village, where she was banished from (While totally underestimating the threat of her own actions).
Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:38:23

RambOrc

Important is to keep the Hexen look & feel - some non-Hexen textures are always OK and map architecture can be taken from any other game (Heretic, UT, Witchaven etc) but they should not look & feel like a Heretic or UT map - and textures are an important part of this distinction. As for side quests, first is to get the travel map, then we can sow the locations and after that quests can be created to connect them.
Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:41:06

Crimson Wizard

Do not worry, I promise to use textures wisely <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> I will work on travel map as soon as I finish basic version of monster AI (that's almost done).
Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:55:56

RambOrc

Hope you can have a travel map system soon, it's the A and O of building the world.
Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:17:07

Firebrand

I'll begin working on the experience system as soon as I finish and upload the latest KA internal build, which is almost done <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->.
Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:32:45

RambOrc

What I want is the developer cheat of KMOD (octomont) with all relevant options (level, exp, money). Ofc only after the values are in the engine.
Sun, 09 Sep 2007 03:25:10

The 4th Class

Took the time to review some more maps now, I'm determined to review them all in the SE-MAPS-ALPHA compilation. This one is all the Darklord 217 maps: HEXMISS - Ah, I remember distinctly this one came out of the H!Zone expansion pack. While I do really like this mod, unless we do some major geographic and artistic renovations to it, I fear that adopting it may make our pursuit to borrow other author's maps a bit too obvious. (If I make any sense)... It's a good map, but I'm just worried this one might be too well-known. HEXRAN - Hehe, this was a funny one. ... Design is good, may be a bit corny though but I liked playing it. HXCOD2 - This one was really fun and exciting. Loved the layout of it all and the atmosphere, but perhaps the real winner in this one is the Death Wyvern violently rampaging the city. I think if we add this one though, we should add a 2nd wyvern. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> But Rambo if you don't mind, I do think this map could serve as a good template for the city proper in our main town map. Better yet, this map could be the old square itself. HXTERA - Dark, challenging... however, when I played it, it had a HUGE problem with crashing EVERY time I tried to reload my game to even warp to the next level (exact bug report: "Z_CheckHeap: block size does not touch the next block.") Would have been a keeper, but unless this crucial bug is fixed this will serve no point for us. KORJAIL - Lame. It started off pretty cool, despite our overabundance on "escape from prison" maps, but then it dies a quick death after the author reveals his poor mapping skills and rather uninteresting puzzles (like battling a few dark bishops with only a low-ammo 2nd weapon, then all of a sudden pop comes the mage boss, then with low-ammo 3rd weapon you have to battle Korax). Possible to beat, but no flow and the 1st word of this review sums it up. KRULL - Another great hub (the REAL winner, however, is the last level, set in a deep volcano. If we only include one level from this set in Korax RPG, must be the last one). Also featues some gruesome sound effects that really remind me of the early 1990's D&D computer games, and nearly scared me at it! Also features some speech, but no print function accompany it so it may benefit our non-English-inclined players if we provide text with the speech. LEDGES - Good as a small deathmatch level, not too sure if it'd fit anywhere in the Korax RPG though. MTNBETA - Too bad this is a beta, I'd've really liked to see it finished (again another mapper neglects a lot of the key numerics). But anyway, there's some nice maps in here, some not as great though (the best one IMO is the erupting mountain level, where you have a limited amount of time to exit the level before it erupts and you burn to death). I don't think these would fit in SE though, but it's worth playing in its own right. PURPDTH1 - Another deathmatch level, but there's just no real atmosphere to it, it's just a generic each-room-has-unique-textures arena. I say no to this one. WSHEXDOM - I like the CONCEPT that the mapper was TRYING to evoke (a high-sky combat), but sadly he didn't have the designer's know-how to pull it off well (like making descending elevators ridiculously fast so you end up free-falling to your death). I think you should all check out this map just to see the ideas, not the map itself. Some interesting things he did, now if only he had a few more years' experience under his belt! ZOWEHEX - Proof that minimalism can work in Hexen! These maps invoke detailed atmospheres while maintaining a straightforward geography, and the complex design is reserved the truly important parts of the map, like staircases. If we were to include these maps, they should be as separate identities, not parts of a mini-hub. Once I've reviewed all them, I will give a summary list of all the YES maps, and all the NO maps. I encourage all members to do the same.

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