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KMOD 4 feature/version planning

Thu, 24 Feb 2011 14:43:58

RambOrc

I suggest doing a larger number of minor versions so as to have a fast release cycle. KMOD 4.0 should have the basics on which 4.1 and later can build. To determine the feature list of 4.0, we need to first compile a full list of all work that is 100% implemented and ready to go. Just edit the category posts below to add everything you know is done and available. Also feel free to rearrange/rename the category posts.
Thu, 24 Feb 2011 14:44:51

RambOrc

RPG elements (code and artwork) [color=#FF0000:2y5h7eyu]Coded[/color:2y5h7eyu] Character stats (Strength, dexterity, etc) Experience and leveling
Thu, 24 Feb 2011 14:45:21

RambOrc

Monsters (code and artwork) Features [color=#FF0000:318qveug]Coded[/color:318qveug] Advanced AI: [list:318qveug]Navigation (Optional, requires placing navigation objects on map, otherwise ignored) Ability to perform scripted orders: patrolling, following, attacking, pressing buttons More ways to customize behavior, like what makes monster alerted (via map scripts) Ability to perform tactical moves, like evasion (only basic implementation ATM) Teams [/list:u:318qveug] Capability to make monsters serving as "saddle horses" for a player or other monsters (probably working, but wasn't tested much) Monsters dropping sliver and gold bars (that is easily customized) New monsters [color=#FF0000:318qveug]Coded[/color:318qveug] fully or nearly fully implemented (need balancing though) (detailed info can be seen here: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.korax-heritage.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2072">viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2072</a><!-- l -->) [list:318qveug] Ettin Slinger Ettin Flechetter Ettin Commander Spectral Centaur Flame Centaur Dark Cardinal Dark Advisor Ghost Magma Stalker Lava Dweller Afrit Leader Afrit Martyr Chilling Myst Poisonous Myst [/list:u:318qveug] [color=#FF0000:318qveug]Artwork[/color:318qveug] ???
Thu, 24 Feb 2011 14:46:35

RambOrc

Weapons/spells (code and artwork) [color=#FF0000:2u36wfqw]Coded[/color:2u36wfqw] New weapon inventory (weapon belt) Spell inventory
Thu, 24 Feb 2011 14:47:45

RambOrc

Miscellaneous [color=#FF0000:22kdnoam]Coded[/color:22kdnoam] Spells that act as stand-alone actors in game, which make it possible to use same spell both as player's and monster's weapon. Special spell types that are layed on player and monsters and perform any sort of custom alterations. Travel map Scriptable conversations
Thu, 24 Feb 2011 14:51:37

RambOrc

Once the category lists above are filled, we can discuss in further posts which ones should be part of 4.0. Crimson also asked about maps, I'd say with the rapid release cycle we could always just do a little bit of stuff on a map here or there as fancy strikes us and include it in the next release.
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:11:50

Crimson Wizard

Depending on which KRPG features should be toggled off, and which KMOD intrinsic features that are not needed for SE should be added to KRPG, we may either use same code branch or create a new one for KMOD. Some of the KRPG parts are optional (like monster navigation) and simply not processed in abscence of required resources/map objects.
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:38:11

RambOrc

Probably no forking needed, as no features work differently, they are simply either active or not. Given that KRPG is based on KA code, I'd guess it has all multiplayer stuff in it as well, meaning there is nothing KMOD 4 needs that KRPG wouldn't have (cooperative mode is a must for KMOD 4, whereas KRPG has no multiplayer).
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 10:24:03

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":2kmbsur7]Given that KRPG is based on KA code, I'd guess it has all multiplayer stuff in it as well No, and no, it hasn't. I think it was based on Vavoom Hexen. Ofcourse, some things were copied, but not new Bot AI and not KA inventory and other KA objects.
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 10:35:03

RambOrc

Hm then a fork would be needed for multiplayer in KMOD4?
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 10:51:18

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":24yn32mt]Hm then a fork would be needed for multiplayer in KMOD4? Since multiplayer may be disabled by simply hiding "multiplayer" option in main menu, possibly this won't be a reason to use different copy of the code. But... well, this depends on other differences. Perhaps making separate project will be more safe anyway.
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:30:10

RambOrc

How about 4.0 is single player only, and we work on the RPG, UI and monster stuff first? 4.5 would be the one introducing cooperative (further multiplayer modes are not needed anyway, that's what KA is for), and any releases below that would be still single player only, and would be essentially still the KRPG version? As a theoretical example: - 4.0, introducing basic RPG features, new monsters and improved monster AI - 4.1, adding new weapon and spell UIs, travel map, NPCs with conversations - 4.3, adding shopping (buy and sell) and some other stuff - 4.5, adding cooperative multiplayer support - 4.6, adding cooperative mode with bots With a roadmap along these lines, it would still be the KRPG codebase up to and including 4.3 and then at that point it would be forked, and the fork called KMOD4 or whatever and adding in cooperative stuff.
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:01:28

Crimson Wizard

That's okay; just one question: will KMOD4 use same weapon system as SE? Different weapons (from both games) can "live" in the same code, but weapons inventory handling in KRPG is now much different from original Hexen.
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:26:06

RambOrc

I guess that means the new weapon UI (the deadline for which depends pretty much on Firebrand's time) has to be finalized for 4.0 instead of for 4.1, or can the unfinished new system co-exist with the legacy weapons? Or maybe we could use the KA weapon system for the interim?
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:46:20

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":3utq7ueh]I guess that means the new weapon UI (the deadline for which depends pretty much on Firebrand's time) has to be finalized for 4.0 instead of for 4.1, or can the unfinished new system co-exist with the legacy weapons? Or maybe we could use the KA weapon system for the interim? Not sure what you mean when saying "KA weapon system". KA used same system as original Hexen. To elaborate, there are 2 weapon systems (they differ both UI-wise and code-wise): 1. Original Hexen system, like any else game of that kind: a number of slots bound to certain keys (numbers by default), each slot may held a number of weapons, which types are, in general, not restricted (i.e. hypothetically there may be any types on same key). All weapons are freely chosen by pressing number keys. 2. New KRPG weapon system: a number of categories bound to certain keys (e.g. numbers), each category helds a number of weapons, restricted by type. Player sets up an active weapon for each category in special arsenal menu and then can only toggle between those pre-selected weapons (he needs to reopen arsenal menu to make different weapon set). Codewise KRPG system is fully implemented; UI-wise it is implemented as a plain text menu (AFAIK). And yes, it is absolutely possible to use legacy weapons with it (just needs little changes in code). In fact all original weapons are still in KRPG.
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 15:33:47

RambOrc

All clear. If the code is fully working and the text mockup is functional, I guess the current KRPG build minus maps is KMOD 4.0 Beta 1?
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:48:16

Firebrand

We have working version of the weapons system for the 3 classes, only the fighter has his "own" UI for selecting weapons, the mage and cleric have a generalized version of the UI. The question is, will we be using new artwork for the first release? I mean, there is a list of coded monsters, is artwork for these needed? If it is, then I can decide to begin working on these first and then continue work on monsters and objects that aren't coded yet. As I said before, I'll be testing the current work on the latest Vavoom revision during the weekend, fixing any problems there could be, if it works fine, then we have our first beta for KMOD 4 <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->. EDIT: BTW, did you (Ramborc and CW) were able to compile the code and resources for SE?
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:31:08

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":385r0mfb]If the code is fully working and the text mockup is functional, I guess the current KRPG build minus maps is KMOD 4.0 Beta 1? Pretty much correct. Additionally some resources may be removed, like new textures and extra music, since they obviously aren't used on original Hexen maps. Latest internal KRPG build had some bugs in the engine, here I made up a KMOD4 build with more stable vavoom 1.33: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://orcishweb.com/downloads/koraxdev/KMod4/KMOD4_20110225.ZIP">http://orcishweb.com/downloads/koraxdev ... 110225.ZIP</a><!-- m --> [quote="Firebrand":385r0mfb]BTW, did you (Ramborc and CW) were able to compile the code and resources for SE? I was able, although I did not touch resources, I wanted only new progs.
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:57:49

RambOrc

Downloading at this moment. As for the question regarding any missing artwork, first priority is to get out there what is finished, i.e. if there is a new monster or spell that is technically implemented but is using existing graphics, let it use those graphics for the time being. Rather have a 4.0 public in early March with missing/placeholder images than one having those images but released in April.
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 21:11:56

Crimson Wizard

What's actually a purpose to worry about new monsters completeness if they aren't placed on maps? Or will they be? Then there's another question. I am aware KMOD used few extra maps with shops or something like that. I guess we should take them eitehr from kmod2 or kmod3 and check how shoppers work. If they used any kind of dialogs, that should be "ported" to new conversation system.
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 21:23:34

RambOrc

What I envisioned is a quick editing of the original Hexen map and replacing monsters with the stronger new version in the later maps, e.g. if say there are 3 different difficulty ettin types, replace ettins in the 2nd and 3rd hubs with the medium difficulty ones and ettins in the 4th and 5th hubs with the highest difficulty ones. Shopping is not yet implemented and I wouldn't want to delay a release because of that feature.
Fri, 25 Feb 2011 21:43:13

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":3sxa3ppc]What I envisioned is a quick editing of the original Hexen map and replacing monsters with the stronger new version in the later maps, e.g. if say there are 3 different difficulty ettin types, replace ettins in the 2nd and 3rd hubs with the medium difficulty ones and ettins in the 4th and 5th hubs with the highest difficulty ones. BTW I believe that we may introduce leveling system for monsters, that will automatically change monster stats depending on map (or player level when he first enters the map). This will make it possible to get similar results without editing maps themselves. Ofcourse this won't cover cases when you want significantly different monsters, like ettins that shoot arrows or throw fletchettes instead of ordinary melee ettins. [quote="RambOrc":3sxa3ppc]Shopping is not yet implemented and I wouldn't want to delay a release because of that feature. As I said much earlier, simple shopping in the Strife style may be implemented using conversation system. Won't it be enough for the first release? EDIT: I have checked kmod3 "shoppe" maps... looks like back then KH mappers did not know how to modify map contents through scripts <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc6.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> there are 4 almost identical maps which differ only by amount of goods on shelves. If this ought to be replicated, single map will be enough.
Sat, 26 Feb 2011 12:25:48

RambOrc

Shopping system: yeah, if you can implement that, we can test in-game how it feels. Feel free to use and modify the shopping map created by the idiot who doesn't know how to modify contents with scripts. <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc4.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> Leveling monsters: that's something I want to avoid, if the monsters level up with the player, there is no sense of achievement.
Tue, 01 Mar 2011 08:53:24

RambOrc

If you can give me the thing IDs for the upgraded monster versions, I can try running a find & replace in DB2 for a few maps to see the results.
Tue, 01 Mar 2011 09:13:10

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":1tno4uzb]If you can give me the thing IDs for the upgraded monster versions, I can try running a find & replace in DB2 for a few maps to see the results. Our DB2 config should have these... but it misses few for some reason; you may also check in <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.korax-heritage.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2072">viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2072</a><!-- l -->
Tue, 01 Mar 2011 10:08:56

RambOrc

Ah OK, will check when I get home. Regarding the linked thread, the thingID of the original monsters is missing, should I add them when I search for a monster in DB2?
Tue, 01 Mar 2011 10:36:53

Crimson Wizard

Why not. I think I simply did not bother to add these because they were listed in Vavoom Hexen config anyway.
Tue, 01 Mar 2011 12:46:22

RambOrc

Good, I'll do some map changes for Beta2 then. What time frame do you think you want to release it?
Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:41:25

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":1cfcedpe]What time frame do you think you want to release it? Erm. I don't know. Right now I've been fixing some stuff in conversation parser. I guess there should be shopper map already? Something else? Also, how do you suppose to change original maps? Are you going to edit them right in the Hexen.wad? For I'd suggest to save certain maps into separate wad, they will override originals then (there's special command for that in DB2: Save Map Into; Save As saves ALL wad).
Wed, 02 Mar 2011 17:50:49

RambOrc

Saved all maps into a new wadfile, OTOH I have a problem with installing the KRPG config files, I get following error messages on startup: Unable to load the game configuration file "KoraxRPG(UDMF).cfg". Error near line 24: Spaces not allowed in key names. Unable to load the game configuration file "KoraxRPG.cfg". Error near line 24: Spaces not allowed in key names.
Wed, 02 Mar 2011 17:55:26

RambOrc

Nevermind, installing a newer version of DB2 made that go away. Now the question is, do I use the UDMF or the plain version?
Wed, 02 Mar 2011 18:02:11

RambOrc

At least from the KRPG (Hexen format) configuration some monster are missing, e.g. Ettin commander and slinger, only flechetter is included.
Wed, 02 Mar 2011 21:14:41

RambOrc

Check <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://orcishweb.com/downloads/koraxdev/KMod4/kmod4maps.wad">http://orcishweb.com/downloads/koraxdev ... d4maps.wad</a><!-- m --> , it should have all Hexen maps and Ettins should be replaced by slingers in hub 2, flechetters in hubs 3 and 4, commanders in hub 5.
Thu, 03 Mar 2011 18:33:28

RambOrc

This is the monster upgrade system I'm implementing:
          Hub 1   |   Hub 2   |   Hub 3   |   Hub 4   |   Hub 5
Ettin       1            2            3          3         4   
Afrit       1            2            2          3         3
Bishop      -            -            1          2         3
Centaur     1            1            2          4         3
1 is always the original Hexen creature, 2-4 are the stronger versions according to the lists at <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.korax-heritage.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2072">viewtopic.php?f=20&t=2072</a><!-- l --> In the case of centaurs, 1 is centaur and 2 is slaughtaur, both from the original game. In the 3rd hub, centaurs are upgraded to slaughtaurs, while slaughtaurs are untouched. In the 4th and 5th hubs, both centaurs and slaughtaurs are upgraded to new monsters (flame centaurs in hub 4, ghost centaurs in hub 5).
Thu, 03 Mar 2011 18:48:10

Crimson Wizard

Are you sure it is a good idea to simply substitute one monster type by another? Well, in case of centaurs this actually may have sense, but take Ettin Flechetters, they are not supposed to fight in melee, but rather throw grenades from behind front lines, or when standing on higher ground.
Fri, 04 Mar 2011 08:34:21

RambOrc

It's a broad and fairly quick approach, replacing all those monsters in the ca. 25 maps should be accomplished in 1-2 hours, whereas manual editing would result in maybe 3-4 maps being done in the same time. Manual tweaking can be done later if necessary, but it should give a good first impression whether the difficulty increases are about right as the player progresses through hubs.
Sat, 05 Mar 2011 17:44:41

RambOrc

Well all maps are updated according to above table, check <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://orcishweb.com/downloads/koraxdev/KMod4/kmod4maps.wad">http://orcishweb.com/downloads/koraxdev ... d4maps.wad</a><!-- m --> and give feedback how it feels.
Mon, 07 Mar 2011 08:52:53

RambOrc

I've run a number of maps to check whether the monsters are really replaced, it's kinda scary when you see a bunch of ettins and centaurs walking towards you and suddenly it's raining grenades and there is fire on the ground. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> How far do you estimate you are from a next build? If it's gonna be some time yet, I'll make a newspost about Beta1 with the updated map pack, so that people can already test the new monsters and the stats/leveling system.
Mon, 07 Mar 2011 13:05:58

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":2jgmapky] How far do you estimate you are from a next build? If it's gonna be some time yet, I'll make a newspost about Beta1 with the updated map pack, so that people can already test the new monsters and the stats/leveling system. Wait, wait <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Can you tell first what is supposed to be added to next build? I haven't work much on past week, and at the moment I was thinking only to improve shopper dialog (which feels too cumbersome script-wise). Also there's a problem of inserting shop map in between hubs... BTW I can see fps drops too. So far I can tell that killing all monsters don't make much difference... I learnt that toggling models off add 10-12 fps. Guess this needs further investigation.
Mon, 07 Mar 2011 14:16:40

RambOrc

Shopping maps + shopping system + conversations with NPCs should be released together, as the features can be shown off using the shop map (which has two NPCs for talking since KMOD 2.x or maybe KMOD 3.0). What do you mean by there's a problem inserting the shop map between hubs? Another big chunk would be adding new weapons and spells to fill out the spell book and weapon belt with at least a few choices so it can be experienced how the system works. I think best is to publish Beta1 as it currently is, allowing testing already with most of the new monsters and the exp/leveling/attributes system.
Mon, 14 Mar 2011 13:31:05

RambOrc

Is there anything I can help with for Beta2 (i.e. not coding)?
Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:18:43

Crimson Wizard

[quote="RambOrc":3oittrdn]Is there anything I can help with for Beta2 (i.e. not coding)? I wish I knew <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc4.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> I don't have a full idea of what should be in the game yet, except for new code.
Fri, 18 Mar 2011 00:21:27

RambOrc

Well KMOD has always been 90% about code. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc9.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->
Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:04:21

RambOrc

To elaborate on this: KMOD 4 is about gameplay enhancement, once we add things like a travel map, quests with stories, reworked or new maps, we are talking about TCS (which is a natural evolution of KMOD4). I am myself not quite sure how to define the exact line between the two, unless we just have one package in which this or that stuff is disabled. Or maybe we release KMOD 4, then we branch and call it TCS, and backport AI/weapon/monster code changes?
Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:38:43

RambOrc

[quote="RambOrc":1p1d86x3]- 4.0, introducing basic RPG features, new monsters and improved monster AI - 4.1, adding new weapon and spell UIs, travel map, NPCs with conversations - 4.3, adding shopping (buy and sell) and some other stuff - 4.5, adding cooperative multiplayer support - 4.6, adding cooperative mode with bots Given new information since originally posting this, the new weapon and spell UI is already part of 4.0. [quote="Crimson Wizard":1p1d86x3]at the moment I was thinking only to improve shopper dialog (which feels too cumbersome script-wise). Also there's a problem of inserting shop map in between hubs... What exactly does this mean and what's the status on this? Should NPCs/conversations/shopping be scheduled as 4.1, meaning 4.0 betas are now about bugfixing mainly or do you want these features to be part of 4.0 as well?
Sun, 20 Mar 2011 21:22:01

Crimson Wizard

First of all, since you asked about how you could help, I think you could work on ideas of how to improve monster behavior, and maybe balance. Perhaps making more accurate monster placing on maps. BTW, I wonder if it may be possible to decrease starting movement speed for players. This may also add sense in increasing strength attribute for mage and cleric. Also what about fatugue to control duration of running? Regarding shops. I'd personally wait until we make a more useful shop UI. Dialog-based is too cumbersome and not much convenient to player. Currently I am working on monsters behavior, making them strafe, evade and make aggressive leaps on player <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/orc2.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->. That generally works but I want to improve something code-wise, also we still need to think out which monsters should have these abilities. Regarding bugs. The first priority is monster stucking after reloading a game. I've already found what causes this, but haven't yet figured out the best way to fix.
Mon, 21 Mar 2011 13:14:50

borsuk

You could find several interesting monster abilities if you playtested my mod. All changes are documented in the readme, but I suggest not reading it until you check out the new stalker (map map08). It will be more amusing that way :> <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sendspace.com/file/a26wjc">http://www.sendspace.com/file/a26wjc</a><!-- m -->
Mon, 21 Mar 2011 14:15:26

RambOrc

OK shops/NPCs postponed to 4.1. I always hated fatigue, stupid concept for an FPS (you are basically punishing the player for doing what he is supposed to do, i.e. move fast). For strategically placed quick dashes, instead of a negative thing you can use a positive thing, i.e. boots of speed artifact. Lowering initial run speed for cleric and even more for mage is of course not only good but needed, it was that way in KMOD 1/2 and should be in 4 as well. Monster groupings: you talked about the flechetters being meant as part of a group, any other co-dependencies I should know about for placement?
Tue, 29 Mar 2011 15:01:49

Firebrand

Speed for Cleric and Mage hasn't been touched, if you compare it to original Hexen, it should be the same, I don't recall moving anything in the source about this. I'm uploading a newer Vavoom revision, CW, if you update the SVN repository, it'll have the latest versions of VCC and VLUMPY to use with the latest Vavoom revision, it contains important fixes for renderer in OpenGL and other small improvements in progs source which KMOD could benefit from.
Sat, 07 May 2011 14:15:34

Crimson Wizard

I think we must work on equipment. I am not sure I fully understand current plans on how KMOD4 weapons and inventory should look like. What weapons are planned to be there?
Sat, 07 May 2011 22:02:26

RambOrc

The same as in KRPG, KMOD 4 is basically KRPG sans the new world/story and with a reduced amount of items/monsters/etc.
Sun, 08 May 2011 13:08:29

Crimson Wizard

KRPG arsenal system is designed specifically for large amount of weapons, divided on number of types. in KMOD4 we have only 4 weapons (as in Hexen). Which weapons should be added?
Mon, 09 May 2011 10:20:56

RambOrc

Actually, there are more than 4 weapons in KMOD 4, at least for mage and cleric. The old KMOD way of binding a bunch of spells to extra keys and using SP to fuel them is passé, we have the KRPG concept where all spells are assigned to a slot like weapons, using mana of varying colors. I'd say use the KRPG number assignment to add weapons/spells and some numbers will simply have nothing to be assigned to them for the time being. Original Hexen weapons Mage wand: 3 (all types of wands, only one can be assigned active) frost shards: 5 arc of death: 6 bloodscourge: 2 (it's a spell loaded into the staff) Cleric mace: 1 serpent's staff: 2 barbecue:5 wraithverge: 6 Fighter gauntlets: 1 timon's axe: 2 hammer: 3 quietus: 4 Old KMOD spells Mage Horrible pain: 8 Cleric Spirits within: 6 Wrath of the gods: (8)

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