Right I'm almost done with some of the more simple tasks for TCS that I wanted to get done to ease me into Vavoom, so it's time to look towards some RPG features, in this instance the Conversation System used in KH. 1) The old system used in the SE/MKod3 engine, although heavily modified to allow for triggars, quests, item giving/taking, exp giving, etc... 2) Copy the one from Strife and modifying it were needed to add flexability, and making it suit KH more. 3) A new one, if you have a better idea than the first 2 please state it here and we can discuss.

I haven't actually played Strife before, but I voted on it, because from screenshots, it appears to me as a more convencional method, with the game paused, and a new menu with the focus on the NPC portrait, his question and our choices of answers (the classical talking system seen in various great RPG games like Antara, Krondor, Dragon Lore2, etc.). The down side is that it would need lots of new art, unless the poitrait would NOT enlarge on the NPC's faces (showing instead a frontal, automatic picture from the actual place, including his whole body and background in the view window), since they are small sprites. I wouldn't mind to have the old system aswell, as long as the camera doesn't switch from NPC to player everytime the respective character is talking (and stick to the player's back, in a 3/4 view (South-West or South -East), because although it's a really nice mechanics made from Janis, I think it would eventually become annoying or distracting for the player, and this should be kept for more special converstions or even for some kind of simplified cut-scene.

If it's not too much of an extra effort, what about using both? The KMOD3 version for cutscenes, the Strife version for standard dialogues (and at the same time this way a cutscene could include the option of suddenly giving you a choice how the action should proceed by choosing what you answer). Actually, instead of the Strife one there could be one like in Antara, where the background is always the actual 3D world, changing as the speaker changes. Yes this would require to draw new pix for all NPCs but I think the effect would be worth the effort, especially that these are not animated and so the same single image could be used unchanged, and that for up to hundreds or even thousands of sentences. The Antara one also offers you more topics and is better suited for a 640x480 (or higher) base resolution. For those who didn't yet play the Betrayal in Antara demo, it's time to do that, there is at least one download link to it in the devforum.

I don't think there'd be too much trouble having both. I personally favored the Strife system although I'm not sure how it works, it could take some work to get how we want. Strife style will also already have voiceover support so we could have that as an extra if we have enough demand for it. The convo system could also be enhanced with the mouse support if you wanted.

Yes, my original intent was also to get the Antara talking system, which is much more complex. You can actually go through your invetory while talking and use an item or try to give it to the NPC, and the 3d world is the actual background of the conversations, being just a little darkened for focus on the NPC. The only thing I don't agree much is the use of key words instead of full answers (with different tones and meanings), because while it was nice in Antara, due to the good acting and the fact that the characters' speech was too complex to be reduced to simple sentences, I still think several phrases of answers are better suited for a lighter story-line, and give you more control over the character atitude toward the other persons in the game (like Strife, or most Adventure games, like Beneath a Steel Sky or Blade Runner, etc.).

I vote for the one in Strife, it is more complete and I think it's more easier to use.

I think that taking one from SE/KMod3 engine is best way. It uses as a base windowing system that I'm also implementing in Vavoom (actually in KMod3 it has more features implemented). And it's also very easy to extend with comands for background picture, voice etc. The downside of Strife's conversation system is that it uses a binary format and there's no editors available for it (at least I don't know any). It also makes it impossible to extend with new features.

Oh yes and what I definitely want is a good convo editor, it's not very funny when I add some lines to a convo script and the game simply crashes when I start that map and I don't even know what exactly the problem was, bad syntax or just a too long line of text. <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? -->

If a conversations editor could be achieved in a somewhat easy and interactive setting, it would be awesome for mid-level mappers to add their own RPG touches on their work, without having to know much programming? As I said before, Janis system's could always be used as base (since it is more code-friendly, as he said), as long as the 3rd POV is spared only for special ocasions, and the windowed mode becomes the standard (at least, in my humble opinion. There's NOTHING worng with the 3rd POV chat system, but I already stated my reasons <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->)

Right I think I'll ignor the Poll <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> . And go with what Janis said, he does after all have a far greater understanding of both systems as he wrote both. But I'll change the current system so it doesn't have the current 3D view, I'll see about adding quests, items giving, triggers, etc... Should I add voiceover support? I'll also try and get to work on that convo editor I said I'd make.

Moose it seems you missed a crucial fact, i.e. that Janis was talking about the *code* behind the two different systems whereas everyone else around here was talking about the *appearance* of the two systems. I for one surely never meant you should copy the Strife dialogue code, I was talking about the look. Actually, I think a modified version of the Betrayal in Antara convo system look would be what we could use best: the same 3D environment snapshot in the background and a high-quality large pic of the character talking, but instead of clicking on topics words you should have different answers to a question you can choose from. Forget about voiceovers for the moment, I'd give it ~90% chance that there won't be any in TCS (somewhat better chances in the sequels).

Point taken, but I'd still be ignoring the poll if I did the BiA style convo system which I'll have a look at later.

No you wouldn't because the only VIP here voted for that. <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> (LOL j/k)

The current conversation system has two modes - first person and third person. Currently only third person mode pauses the game, but it should be prety easy to implement pausing command in first person mode. And for third person mode it's prety easy to implement different camera positioning commands. As of edditing, a plain text file for me seams to be the easiest one to deal with, since you don't need a special editor for it.

The current convo source language is fine as far as code goes, but a mouse GUI editor with auto syntax checking would make things a lot easier, especially one that can display a convo tree in a graphical manner and allows click'n'drag. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

I've played the BiA demo again and see what you mean for the convos, and I think it's a good idea, and should be easily do-able with windows, and look much nicer once I have the Highres 2D stuff implemented, but as you said it will mean that every NPC will need a highres image for use in this Mago and Firebrands opinions on this would be nice. It'll also make use on the Mouse GUI hopefully making it even easier.

I'm actually for even more highres character pics, i.e. that when you generate your character in the beginning of the game, you can choose from a list of faces/bodies/etc to customize your character a bit, and this would be a place where you would see your character very well (same pic could be used BTW in the journal). Oh yeah, just a quick control Q: will TCS be running on anything besides Winblows or are DirectX etc functions used in the code which can't be easily replicated in Linux (I guess we can ignore the DOS port)?

Janis would be the person with the best knowledge with of this, but I would say that a Linux version is possible if Vavoom can run on Linux which I have a feeling it does.

Vavoom itself can, that's no prob - I meant rather things like a mouse GUI.

Well atleast I was right about Vavoom, I can't say for sure but I don't think there will be any problem with Linux support, I prefer and have worked with OpenGL for longer anyway.

That'd be cool, if it'd be possible I'd like to have even a MacOS X version (which might not be that impossible, since it's using FreeBSD which is though quite different from Linux, still a lot closer to it than Winblows).

As of DOS and Linux support, if you don't change the engine (i.e. the exe file) it will run wit no probs. If there will be any engine changes, they in the end should be implemented in main engine so that you don't need to distribute executable with it. The main problem with MacOS might be that it's a big-endian system. Current implementation of ACS script execution relies heavily on little-indian byte order, so this might be the main problem. The rest of the code does perform byte order conversions. As of mouse driven UI, mouse events are passed to progs, you just need to handle them and then implement cursor etc.

Is this also valid for X11 for MacOS X (10.3 only)? <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/x11/">http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/x11/</a><!-- m --> I think it'd be really cool to port Vavoom to X11, as far as I can understand it would allow a single binary that could run on - Linux - BSD (all variants like FreeBSD, OpenBSD, also MacOS X 10.3) - Sun Solaris - SGI Irix - OS/2 - Cygwin (never heard of this one before) <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.xfree86.org/">http://www.xfree86.org/</a><!-- m --> This could also greatly increase Vavoom popularity. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> It'd even be better than the current Linux version which you still have to compile first. I don't have much experience with X11, on a PowerMac G5 last year I've installed OpenOffice for X11 and it ran fine, the only other thing I used in there was command-line FTP (and some other console commands of course), but overall it seemed OK.

As for Highres sprites: the crude truth is that I don't have the slightest idea of how to draw them in order for them to look good... I use highres pictures for making my NPCs, but never did one completed - I merely make the mass and shadow stuff, then resize and add the little details in the small sized sprite... Still, this is one feature that I REALLY want in the game, so you can expect that, at least from my part, I'll do everything to learn it and provide the needed graphics. BY the way, could I ask a little favour? How can I take screenshots from Antara? I think it would hep a lot if I could sutdy those characters' images and even the cinamatics sequences.

You just press PrintScreen, ALT+TAB back to your desktop, start up your image editing app and paste the contents of the clipboard as a new image. <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->

Well I assumed I'd have to edit the engine sourcecode eventually, Cheats seem to be done using both the engine and the progs, so to add Octomont I guess I'd have to edit the engine, I'm not sure about the hi-res stuff, maybe you could enlighten me. Mago you have lots of time in which to make the images, I still need to code the hi-res 2D capabilities, mouse GUI and convo system before I could use them.

What you mean with porting to X11? It's a windowing system. And Vavoom is using it in Linux version when you are running it from X11. Oh, and you can't have an executable (engine) running on different platforms unless it's a binary for a virtual machine (progs). As of cheats, you can implement them without modifying engine by making them new 'gimme' cheat commands. As of hi-res stuff, current drawing functions assume a 320x200 screen so new builtins for higher resolution will be needed. Maybe just a function that changes virtual screen size.

According to this <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/ooo-osx_downloads.html">http://porting.openoffice.org/mac/ooo-o ... loads.html</a><!-- m --> I understood that X11 also include core GUI functions, but I guess I rather shut my mouth on this topic as you surely know better what's what. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> Well anyway, what's the chances of porting Vavoom to MacOS X and/or FreeBSD? (besides Linux, these are the main platforms anti-Winblows guys run on their desktops) Can the high-res base resolution be implemented the same way as you did it in KMOD3? Or was that no complete implementation (i.e. not for overlays)? Hey just an idea... since you plan to rewrite the Vavoom netcode from scratch in the coming months, why not simultaneously drop the DOS tree, start with the MacOS/BSD implementation, make 640x480 the lowest possible resolution at all etc etc and name this Vavoom 2.x? <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

X11 provides windows. Basicly it's a base for a window manager, such as Gnome. As of portig to other OSes - I don't have them so I can't do that. Is somebody has access to them, he could try to compile Vavoom on it. It will be very interesting to see the results. I just implemented a function that changes the size of the virtual screen, so if you want, there's no problem with switching to higher resolution. Rewriting network stuff is on high level which is platform independent, so there's no need to drop DOS support. Dropping software rendering might be the only reason for this.

You mean making 640x480 the lowest possible resolution for Vavoom would still cause no probs with DOS? Come to think of it, maybe not, some DOS games used 640x480x8bit (and some even 800x600). New function as new code in Vavoom?

Allegro supports all SVGA modes, even hi-res 32-bit ones. It's a new builtin function in progs.

Can 3D resolution and 2D overlay resolution be independent or are they tied together? I.e. is it possible to have a high color 1024x768 image for inventory, journal etc but at the same time run e.g. 640x480x8bit for the 3D world?

Yep, sure, it will be scalled down

Meaning if we make e.g. the journal 1024x768 original size, then if someone runs the game in that resolution they get it 1:1, if they run it on 1600x1200 the image is enlarged and loses some of its sharpness maybe, and if they run it on 640x80 the image is scaled down and loses details?

[quote="dj_jl":1l383ebj]I just implemented a function that changes the size of the virtual screen, so if you want, there's no problem with switching to higher resolution. Does it mean it's already in the latest Vavoom code? Could you internally release this code so Camper can use it for KA so that we can make higher res start screen/menu etc?

Don't forget me. This could be where my log comes in handy.

What I meant is that Camper has an RC on his hands, for which implementing any new engine feature should be done ASAP. With TCS, time is not so much of the essence (though Firebrand is working quite fast, it seems in the end he might be the one who does all the map conversions, whoa).

Well now you put it that way I'll forgive you, <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> . As to Firebrand's very fast work, it helps me keep working on it. I can't have him being the only person with anything to show.

Trying to awake my guilty feelings, are you? <!-- s:x --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mad.gif" alt=":x" title="Mad" /><!-- s:x --> (LOL j/k)

I have been thinking on the high resolution images for the NPC's I can help Mago to do them (but be aware that my skills are not the same as those Mago has <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> ), I might have to take the double of time that Mago would to make a single Hi-Res image (I think we still have a lot of time in our hands for that, so I'll discard that as a problem <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> ), as for the maps conversions, I could help you with another hub if you need me to, but in further months my free time is going to be reduced, I might have to take a part time job as my school payments are growing this year (and more than I have thought <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( --> ), I'm going to start looking for it next week (vacations at least!! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> ), I have a friend that has an Internet Cafe (he rents computers for internet use), so I might have a chance that it's not so hard to do (as I think), but it might require me to reduce the time I spend on KH and other stuff a lot (because there is school too and I can let anything make me reduce my grades), but I see it on the nice side and I don't think it's going to be that bad, all changes come for a reason.

It's funny, but actually, the same thing is happening to me. My college's month payments are huge, my mother is already having problems, the government help (schollarship?) isn't quite enough, and I'm already looking for part time jobs... It would be nice to work only at weekends, but those are hard to find. At first I was very sad because I had to work, my mother was always pressuring me, I was always worried and down, but now that I think of it, I've been changing my myself a lot these last months, organizing myself and the things I want and have to do. In the end, I think all this will help me develope myself as a more responsable person, being able to do everything I want to, taking the most out of my free times. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Anyway, I've played the first HUB again, and I must say it's incredible work, Firebrand! The first map is so refreshing and well done, all the care on the night-blue light in the outside, the landscape you can see on top of the bell tower, the colored light work and architecture moffidications were all done in a very impressive way. The Seven Portals were of course more limited in terms of new stuff, but that's perfectly understandable, due to the maps complex construction and lack of plain spaces to freely modify, but all in all this is great, great work! I've found a couple of bugs in there, and tomorrow I'll post a list (with screenshots) of them aswell as some suggestions.

The code is in Vavoom's CVS repository.

If it makes you peeps feel any better, I'm living in one of the richest countries of this planet and all the same I broke off my university studies some years back because I'd have had to work 4-5 days a week to have enough bucks to pay for school and I'd have had to limit my working days to 2-3 in the week to have enough time to go to school and learn at home. Firebrand, I forgot to mention there is still another great Vavoom effect that could be used to enhance stuff, translucent textures (see the windows in the abandoned town map). Also, some more little ideas: in Seven Portals, when you come down the lift there are mini-waterfalls on left and right behind the bars, they could also be made into a 3D sector with a minimal depth, it'd look better IMO. And in Guardian of Ice, in the room where you get the Fire Key, the two little alcoves with the lava, they are currently stairs, it could be a slope, that'd look more natural I think. Also, the whole thing with the melting ice pillar might be realized in a more spectacular way, using Vavoom capabilities (Janis might better be able to give some ideas on how). Anyway, if your time is limited, then consider Shadow Wood still reserved for me, I'll try to do something with it one of these days.

Thank you for your comments on my mapping stuff, they are important, so I can implement ever more ideas and make the maps more detailed, I'll wait for your bugs report Mago <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> . And as you mention, these changes are always for good, they can make you grow stronger on what you need to grow (there's always something that you need to improve, heh!). BTW, Janis I might upload a new version of my skybox tutorial for you to KDev, I don't know if you receive it in your mail, I sent it to the one you have in the Korax forums (don't know if you got it or not), but if you didn't, then wait for me to upload the new version (it corrects some spell stuff only <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> ). Also, I wanted to ask you some features for Vavoom, I saw that work that Mago post some days ago, and I came up with an idea, how about "layering" skyboxes? It would be nice that you could add a translucent layer like those Unreal makes for it's skyboxes (just an idea), and using the same principle as Mago's work (flat textures), you could make some interesting effects like buildings, mountains, etc. to make the landscape even more real (I don't know how it could be implemented or how difficult it would be, but you could answer that yourself <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> ).

To make a better modeling of the real world, different layers of such a skybox should "move" at different speeds, i.e. if there are e.g. 3 layers, the closest one with a little village, the medium one with some forested hills farther away and the outmost layer with a mountain range, then if you travel in the map the closes skybox should "move" while not as fast as the game world itself, but with maybe 1/4 of that speed, the middle layer should change only if the player goes larger distances, and the outmost layer should never change. This is how such a scenery does look in the real world.

I did receive it. I didn't have time to put it on web page. Layered skyboxes - I'll think about it.