Now, me and Cheapy were on IRC (Of course) and we were talking about Half-Life, about how I liked it. Then Cheapy brings up how big the mods for it are.... Well, thats boring. To the point: After all that junk, Cheapy said that he made a Firebrand Skin for Doom and uploaded to Doomworld.. Well, I just post a little bit of it: <Stryker]K[> I got my next PCG issue today <chis`L> I dont buy magainzes <chis`L> magazines* <Cheapy> i made a firebrand doom skin, and submitted it to doomworld <Cheapy> hopefully it will appear in doomworld's /newstuff chronicles #211 <Stryker]K[> Actually.. This isn't the greatest issue. <Cheapy> know what korax arena needs? A gargoyle class <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> <Cheapy> with flying ability!!!!11 <Stryker]K[> :D There.. Now.. Thats kinda what I was suggesting. That we put a Gargoyle Class in KA.. (Unless this has already been planned, or suggested, I can't remember.)

Cheapy has showed me the skin he made, it could be modified for this purpose, the problem would be to think the weapons and how it should work, also, by flying it would make it a bit more difficult to balance against the other classes, but I also think that it can be done, vavoom's progs are very flexible for that, and it's somewhat easy to work with them and manage to do a lot of stuff with it, so it's not a bad idea, from my point of view, I don't know what you guys think about it. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

LOL, Cheapy is very happy about this and he has even made the sprites for the class and we have been discussing the new weapons for the class, here are some ideas for them: 1- Claws, if you are empty and you want to scratch up some 2- Small Fireball, delays like a quake2 blaster, really basic - Left hand wouldn't hold a crystal at all, since the garg has his own basic fireball power 3- Spread Fireball, much like the mage's frost shards but random like carpet bombing 4- Bouncing Poisonous Fireball that bounces off walls 2 times then detonates on touch (detonates anyways when touches others) poison? - Left hand would hold a dark green orb - Right hand would cast with green smoke emitting from hand probably! - The fireball could flash like Demon's Crest buster ball 5- Floor Fire that goes along the floor like Heretic's maulotaur! - Left hand would probably hold a lavaball (as in some sort of dark rock with lava glowing inside) - Right hand would swing onto the ground 6- Ice ball that freezes others of course - Left hand would hold some nice blue ice crystals 7- Heretic dragonclaw-ish instant hit rapid fire? - Left hand would probably hold a round red crest of fire - Weapon animation would be finger zapping or so 8-BFG Fireball? (that spreads fire) that burns down the house and causes tree fires!! These are easy to code up, and the sprites can be done in no time, I already extracted the resources for them from the Shdowcaster's dragon claws, and the player walking, attacking frames, etc. are all done, so it's a piece of cake to implement it, I don't know what you guys think about it, but it's almost done now <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> .

If it's so advanced, I don't know why not, after all Gargoyles are classic enemies both in Heretic and Hexen. But I thought they would fly? I think that with the direction keys set to foward-backward-strafe left-strafe right and mouselook enabled, a flying player could be decently easy to control, specially if you count the advantge it is to be flying (thus forcing everybody to look out the higher areas). As for the weapons, most are very reasonable, but here are some thoughts: 3. The spread fireballs should be the same as the Maulotaur's attack (not much damage but easy to hit). Also it's already in the code so shouldn't be too hard? 4. Boucing weapon - sounds interesting specially because those would be fired from above and could make for a nice raining effect - but my opinion is that it should be exactly like the Heretic mace weapon (same physics, just different graphics). Weapons 6 and 7 I don't really agree - Ice doesn't mix well with Hexen's gargoyles (they are on fire for instance), and 7 is too powerful conceptually - you could fly to a innacessible area and become a near invulnerable sniper, making it difficult for everybody specially for those with melee only weapons - at least projectiles you can dodge if you are fast. Now that I think of it, for balance maybe the gargoyle could only fly after a certain experience level, giving eerybody the chance to gather some more firepower to face a flying enemy. Anyway, could I take a look at those sprites? <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Yes, you are right, the gargoyle player could fly after a certain level (maybe 7 or <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->, before everyone can use every available weapon, also the player wouldn't be able to fly all the time, there should be a counter that shows the player how much time he has before falling again to the floor (it will make it more fair for everyone else). BTW, the sprites for the player are already in my folder and the subdirectory "karena", I'm recoloring the wings to gray to make just the skin to be changed with the translations in a much simpler way. The weapon sprites will be finished sometime for the next week. And about the weapon suggestions you are doing Mago, you are right on them, i'll change my personal notes to make them behave as you say here. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

Hehehehe, thanks for the consideration, but I'm not demanding anything, just some opinions that i think would make the new weapons feel more Hexen and also be easier to implement. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> I'll take a look at the sprite right now!

Yes, they look pretty decent, not bad at all. Still, I think it could use a less "primary" color, like a more grey tone (as you said), or even a light black, I think it would look meaner. Also the animation is pretty cool, but i was hoping to see a more ape-like kind of movement, it would really fit the monster's theme... <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> But what the hell, it's done and looks nice, I think it will be a good adition to the mod! <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->

Looks nice, I guess its primary color is red and not blue (i.e. I view it with the wrong palette). Just two things: 1) Nearly all weapons are some kind of fireball - boring quite fast. It's an intelligent and also magical being, it can use weapons and spells, or? 2) Flying is definitely out, especially as class ability - it'd break both balance and also most maps.

<!-- s:idea: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_idea.gif" alt=":idea:" title="Idea" /><!-- s:idea: --> x 2 1) Make some weapons fire and others lightning. They both involve heat, so it makes sense. Also, make one of the latter weapons "charge," where the gargoyle can ram into his victims like the Maulotaur. 2) Well, if the gargoyle can't fly, then why not use a levitation effect? The gargoyle theoretically CAN fly, but can't fly 192 units off the floor? This way, his wings serve a purpose, and you can't go ridiculously high like into the Aether and pound the other characters from above.

Or have a gliding ability for longer jumps and slower falling so no falling damage.

Yes, I think it should have some special athletic abilities - it would make for a more realistic and different gameplay, instead of just another sprite running around firing all their arsenal.

Agreed. Whether the levitation thing, or just more athletic abilities, gameplay is still well balanced because he can't get into any cheap niches. And I like how it adds change to the controls. <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->

What Moose said is pretty much what I myself wanted to suggest - IF we really differentiate classes in movement/speed/etc. Let me remind you that balancing so many character classes will be one hell of a challenge even if all their stats are the same and the only thing they differ from each other is their 10 weapons. Anything more, and it'll be as good as impossible to balance character classes accross all maps and game modes. IMO. Let me remind you all of one thing, in Q3A originally they planned three different basic player classes which differed in things like size, speed etc. - by the release of the game, they completely scrapped it and I'm sure with a good reason.

I had also thought that the flying thing would be difficult to make because of the maps and gameplay modes, maybe reduce the falling damage specially for this class could be a good option, and make it jump higer is another thing too (it's easier to implement also, heh! <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> ), make it's jump range a bit higher from the other classes too. I like those ideas too. As for balancing the weapons, it will be difficult, but we have a lot of heads that think better than just one, heh! <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> so I don't think it would become SO difficult (it will be really a pain for the most part), the problem I actually have for the table you asked me, is to translate some of the values, for example, a lot of the melee weapons have the melee range multiplied by values, but: [list:2i48d9k6]- how much is the melee range in doom?? - P_Random() stuff means a number between 0 and the number displayed in the value?? - how can damage be calculated more exactly??[/list:u:2i48d9k6] I know my questions may sound dumb, but I'm not that great on programming (yet) to translate all the code <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt=":oops:" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: --> , but a big part can be understood by me, heh! Also, AFAIK the meleerange has changed a bit from source codes in these days, LOL.

- how much is the melee range in doom??

64

- P_Random() stuff means a number between 0 and the number displayed in the value??

What value? P_Random() returns a random number in range 0..255.

- how can damage be calculated more exactly??

Calculate damage with minimal and with maximal values.

Does anyone know whether Q3A, UT etc does use this old hitdice system Heretic/Hexen uses or whether damage is always a fixed value?

IMHO they all have some randomness, otherwise it would be less interesting.

[quote="dj_jl":tbv2lu2r]What value? P_Random() returns a random number in range 0..255.

- how can damage be calculated more exactly??

Calculate damage with minimal and with maximal values. For example, the damage from a weapon in the code:

damage = 40 + (P_Random() & 15) + (P_Random() & 7);

What I meant to ask, was about the meaning of the values in bold in the example. Which are the minimal and maximal values??

40-62

Thanks! <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> I get it now...

OK, which weapons would you suggest for the gargoyle then? Believe me that I'll think myself on this before going to sleep, heh! Tomorrow I'll post again my ideas so we can all discuss about it...

I think the first question is how will the basic weapons (level 1 up) will work, specially the repulsion disc effect and the flechette effect.

It has been some time since I posted here, in answer to your question Mago, the weapons base are in the first description post I made before in the same thread, we could maybe adapt some of the attacks for the use of weapons by the class, I don't know how well it could get, but it's there's not any rush for it, I have just finished to recolor all the player frames for it, and also extracted the claws for now (the other weapons are in a pause due to the discussion, heh!), but I'm here to post some ideas, the gargoyle could use a sword for one of the attacks (the spread one, or the poison bag one maybe <!-- s:?: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_question.gif" alt=":?:" title="Question" /><!-- s:?: --> ), I have found a cool base for the sword and it wouldn't be too difficult to make it a player weapon sprite so... As for the changes that you suggested for the weapon 6 (the ice one), it could be a thunder staff maybe (it would use the same principle of the weapon just change the sprite & the freezing <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> ), maybe the 7th weapon could work a bit more like the skull staff of the heretic class (to make it easier to avoid the bullets). These are my ideas for now, please discuss them and give any other ideas that come to your mind, the objective of the discussion would be to improve the class for the balance that the game requires.